Chen Stormstout

[perfectgamer911]

For those who play WoW, they might know about the Chen's empty Keg's. well some people were talking about it in the Barrens, when one of them said that Chen was dead. I asked were he got that from but there was no reply.

can anyone tell me if this is just a rumour or if it is true.

[Nephalim]

The quest has given me no reason to assume that, and I haven't heard it elsewhere.

[Romanov77]

I still thought that Pandareen were an april fool joke...

[perfectgamer911]

I found it very weird too, but maybe I missed something

[WarDragon]

I still thought that Pandareen were an april fool joke...
Apparently they have a highly developed, Oriental-style culture on an uncharted island (chain?) to the west of Kalimdor. They have strong shamanistic traditions, and believe in every individual developing his chosen art to perfection, whether that be traditional arts like song or painting, the art of war, or brewing.

[Romanov77]

Apparently they have a highly developed, Oriental-style culture on an uncharted island (chain?) to the west of Kalimdor. They have strong shamanistic traditions, and believe in every individual developing his chosen art to perfection, whether that be traditional arts like song or painting, the art of war, or brewing.

Personanlly I dont like all this...

Pandareen lacks...how do you call it? Seriousliness?

[WarDragon]

Personanlly I dont like all this...

Pandareen lacks...how do you call it? Seriousliness?
Seriousness. Believe me Romanov, I felt the same at first, and quite vehemently so. But, the RPG books (specifically The Manual of Monsters and Magic and Mayhem) dispelled my concerns. It seems that only the Brewmasters themselves are for comic relief; the rest of the Pandaren (whom we unfortunately have yet to see) are highly honor- and tradition-bound, not unlike the New Horde. Think "furry samuri" more than "drunken lout."

[twisted orc]

Maybe you can find then in future wow patchs, but from the few that was realised, the Pandaren lives (or lived, I don't remember now) in Pandaria, they are neutral to the war and have a shaman and a druidic culture.

Edit: and are friendly with the nelven and the tauren.

[Kingcrazygenius]

I don't see why Pandarens are so much harder to accept than Furbolgs. I mean they are more or less the same, except for fur differences and a different degree of advancement.

They have a common ancestry yes?

[TheNewHorde]

Yes, except you and I don't. You are a slimy naga that is really cool, and as WarDragon have mentioned above, I'm the new horde, I am all beefy muscles with axe to slice your slime off.

[Nephalim]

Of all the classes in their society, though, Brewmasters are most likely to wander about in the world, which is why they're the only facet of Pandaren culture we've been exposed to.

I never had a problem with the Pandaren, though. The worst thing a universe can do is take itself too seriously. The pandarens play a minor enough role to not override everything else, but they do add some more joviality to the mix.

[Kingcrazygenius]

I am willing to believe that the april fools Pandaren information is somewhat accurate to their true nature.

Though I doubt any of them can help but make that Bare Necessity crack.

And the Naga are not slimey. Why anyone would assume as such I do not know. If anything someone would injure themselves rubbing their hand on their skin. Razor sharp dentacle skin is fitting for such a race.

[yunn]

The Brewmasters are more Chinese (the outfits esp. Storm, the wine barrel, "Chen"), while the rest of the Pandaren race are more Japanese (samurais), so it seems...

[Kingcrazygenius]

I don't recall any Pandaren samurai. And frankly the less japanese in those games the better in my opinion. There are thousands of other cultures that are just as or vastly moreso interesting to copy out there; like Nerubians and the Egyptian thing and how the High Borne bear so many parallels with Atlantis. Not to mention the native americaness of the Tauren, that was awesome.

[Lord Kil'jaeden]

The Brewmasters are more Chinese (the outfits esp. Storm, the wine barrel, "Chen"), while the rest of the Pandaren race are more Japanese (samurais), so it seems...

I don't remember very well, but doesnt the first version of the brewmaster made by Blizzard was wearing some Korean inspired outfits , before being changed to more traditional Chinese ones ?

And while talking about the Pandaren , is there some more new lore about them found in the World of Warcraft quest system ?

[yunn]

Maybe not stated in the lore, but they do look samurai to me in the concept art (http://www.sonsofthestorm.com/warcraft_samwise026c.html#gallery).

By the way, who's Norgannon (http://www.sonsofthestorm.com/warcraft_thammer009b.html#gallery) and Al'akir (http://www.sonsofthestorm.com/warcraft_thammer010b.html#gallery)?

[Lord Kil'jaeden]

I was more talking about the 3D model of the ingame panda brewmaster than design artwork.

Al'Akir is the Windlord and one of the Old Gods elemental lieutenant.

Norgannon, is the "Lore Keeper" Titan from the Patheon and he is the one that imbued Malygos with the Magic mastery

Nice concept arts though.

[Romanov77]

I find the whole pandareen race as a wise marketing move...

[perfectgamer911]

if I remember correctly the fire split of from pandaren brewmaster has two samurai swords.

[Kingcrazygenius]

They aren't samurai swords though. By their very nature their swords are held with two hands. Only a fool or a mammoth of a man would use them one handed.

[Nephalim]

They could be wakizashis.

[Kingcrazygenius]

They could be wakizashis.

I prefer European swords so I don't have a clue what those are.

[Nephalim]

The samurai used three different kinds of sword. The primary was the katana, which was two-handed. The wakizashi was a mostly ornamental contingency sword they would carry into battle as well. It's shorter and is designed for one-handed use. The third was a tando, which is basically a samurai dagger. They didn't use these on the battlefield, but had them strategically placed in their homes. A set of these three blades is called a daisho.

The more you know! :y-idea:

[Kingcrazygenius]

I hated those commercials. Not once did they show one about human decomposition.

How will I ever work in a mortuary if I don't know these things!?

[twisted orc]

Nepha, how is called that things made of bamboo used by the japa as well? It is used only for training and have the size of a wazicashi?

[Tiddlywinks]

Kendo stick?

[Shonen]

Nepha, how is called that things made of bamboo used by the japa as well? It is used only for training and have the size of a wazicashi?

You might mean shinai, but you could be thinking of a boken as well.

[AJ Wolfhowl]

They are purely Samwise's creation ( he loves them pandas ). The two contrary things to notice were the april fool's joke info and in-game info.
They seem to be Japanese Samurai ( or so Sam describes them ). I like their style, you can go to sonsofthestorm.com for their pics.

KCG : Actually Samurai swords are the best in the world because of their art and their built ( Their edge is so made so only one pt. touches at a time and they are flexible and durable cause of the highly refined technique of smithing) .
Also Samurais are probably the most skilled wielders of the sword.

[Kingcrazygenius]

KCG : Actually Samurai swords are the best in the world because of their art and their built ( Their edge is so made so only one pt. touches at a time and they are flexible and durable cause of the highly refined technique of smithing) .
Also Samurais are probably the most skilled wielders of the sword.

Any evidence for all of these claims? Or are you simply a slave to the Asian=Superior thought line?

[Blastcan]

Never mind the Knights vs. Samurai debate, that's neither here nor there.

The thing with the Pandarens is they were initially conceived with a Japanese montage. It was funny for a while, but when they actually planned to put in the Brewmaster in TFT beta a lot of people complained because pandas are a Chinese icon. So the Brewmaster's dress was changed to be more Chinese.

The Japanese montage still exists in the rest of the Pandaren culture, however. That part of their conception can't be avoided-- they are ultimately a mix of two cultures.

The Fire Panda is just using two Blademaster swords, really-- and it's a two-handed weapon. Take it with a grain of salt.

[AJ Wolfhowl]

Well the swords are the best, name any other culture that makes better swords.
Why should I advocate that, if Mayans or Britons had done it I would have said it.

[Kingcrazygenius]

A sword is built for a purpose. Japanese katana were built to slice, which they are good at. But European swords noticably out-perform them when it comes to stabbing. There were also the very large great swords which were built to crush armor.

[Nephalim]

Let's briefly recap:

AJ: Point - "Japanese make the best swords in the world."
King: Request for Elaboration - "Any evidence for this claim?"
Blastcan: Counterpoint - "The knights vs samurai thing is neither here nor there."
AJ: Supporting statement (apparently) - "Well, Japanese make the best swords in the world."
Evidentiary Claim - "If someone made better swords, I would've said so."

When you make a claim, it's a general and practical rule of discussion that the burden of proof is on YOU. You don't just make statements and then challenge others to disprove it. We're not just going to take your word for it. What you're doing here is saying that Japanese swords are best, and then inferring that you know all about swords, so we should just trust you on it.

That being said, I'd also ask in what context you mean "best." For certain purposes, I'm sure a zweihander would be much more effective than a katana. Likewise, the Japanese tended to not concern themselves with shields. So if I'm using a shield, a Japanese sword is probably not going to be my first choice. Now if you're talking about swordplay in terms of an artform or sport, there are still strong contenders in the form of the rapier or the "tai chi" sword.

[Kingcrazygenius]

I like bastard swords because they sound evil.

[AJ Wolfhowl]

I get what you are trying to say...
like the Arab swords are a lot lighter and faster and european swords were used against chain mail, therefore better for stabbing.
Anyways my point was the Japanese swords have the finest blade and are one of the most durable and flexible swords .I just worded it wrong.

BTW the point of trying to prove it, I can't really prove it as such cause I'm not a sword expert or such but I've heard it alot from those who are.
Its a general belief thing sorta like mongols were best on horses or the english longbow was the most powerful ranged weapon and their archers the best etc.
However I was talking about skill of the samurai only with a sword( no shields etc.).Few can match them there.

[Kingcrazygenius]

You and your 'experts' watch too much anime. General belief things don't cut it either; you need facts.

[Nephalim]

I'll give you that the samurai were the best as being samurai.

[Diskordjah]

japanese swords in the old days werent all THAT good. sure, the methods used to make them were insanely difficult and produced good results. however, as is often the case with insanely difficult things, people do them because they have to.

japanese swordsmithing became advanced because the metals in japan were sucky, crappy and bad. they HAD to make the swords like they did because otherwise they would be bloody useless.

once the japanese were given GOOD metals, however, and applied the same technique, then we can talk about superior weaponry. however, by that time swords were obsolete cause the good metal came in the form of bullets.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Wait wait...sucky, crappy, AND bad!? I figured they were just crappy.

[AJ Wolfhowl]

Actually I hate anime' (sukkyz big eyed people beth wierd!!!1), you really can't have solid facts or proof cause the warriors ared dead their skill is lost and most of the methods of using such weapons is gone.So general belief and agreement is the only way.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Wrong again. As long as there are still some swords left comparisons can still be made.

[Fiendz0r]

but these remaining weapons suffer from tremendous corrossion (how's it spelled, help me out here) and comparing new swords would be bad since the japanese have good metal now

[Nephalim]

So general belief and agreement is the only way.Not only would that not make sense in any way, but who decided that THIS was the general belief aside from chop-socky movies?

[Kingcrazygenius]

but these remaining weapons suffer from tremendous corrossion

Aren't so great then are they?

[Blastcan]

And yet it still has nothing to do with Pandas.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Pandas like bamboo. I forget if that goes for both species or if it's only giant pandas. Red pandas really look more like racoons.

[AJ Wolfhowl]

Nobody has the same talent as those previous warriors did ( Do you know any present day knight ?). Anyways we can get the get the genral belief and agreement from facts. There are facts true, but still our knowledge of the past will be incomplete.

The comparison made does show they were one of the best swords ever crafted.

Proof of that can't be supplied by me cause
1) Im no sword specialist but I do have knowledge from other souces they were one of the best (TV etc.)
2) I really don't have much time these days to search for it on the net and show you.

Disko : what time are you talking about? They built fine swords before even the time
of mongols ,those swords, a few atleast still exist to show they were crafted quite well, much before bullets came.

[Nephalim]

Look you've obviously come to this conclusion and no amount of discussion is going to change your mind. But this is not the way to argue. I want reasons why your point is true, I don't want reasons why you can't prove it.

While we can get general belief from fact, we can also get them from baseless assumptions and pure fiction, so hiding behind "I saw it on TV" isn't even remotely evidence to support your claim.

The Japanese liked to think that they were the best at everything - as most people tend to. Legends they came up with generally supported this theory. They've been incorporated into pop culture and so we're bombarded with this image, particularly in anime and chop-socky kitsch. So while it's not that hard to come to the conclusion that Japan bred the most talented and well-equipped warriors the world has ever seen, I can assure you that Kill Bill and Seven Samurai are not accurate depictions of reality.

[AJ Wolfhowl]

Neph : What we have here is a problem in communicating, you seem to be taking my point completely in a wrong manner.
First of all, oddly enough, I have'nt seen those movies and only heard about kill bill.
I am NOT obsessed by samurais in any way.

I'm definately ready to accept they were not the best swordsmen (Though my point isnt that they were the best swordsmen, it was that they produced one of the finest, durable, strong yet flexible swords ), like you I too need proof, therefore I asked you or anyone else which says that there were any who were better to supply it.

I can't get proof for it because I'm having my exams so I really don't have the time to produce good enough evidence. (You really would'nt believe just ANY site etc. which says so, cause I know I would'nt.)
Also I cannot show you what I have seen and heard since that was from TV and hence temporary.( I saw 2-3 programs on discovery or NGC sometime back and they are neither anime or "chop-socky kitch" <- what the hell does that mean ?)


Niether me nor you (Im assuming) have examined any of the swords by japs or anybody else so we can agree with the people who have ( that is whom I called "experts" ).My proving it to you would require us meeting studying almost all the swords produced by all cultures.A nearly impossible task.

While studying history we can't concretely prove anything since there may lots of info lost or missing.Therefore the genral belief part or acceptance of limited facts.

P.S. are you people arguing (sp) with me cause you really don't accept what I'm saying or just for the sake of defending KCG's pt. ?

[Nephalim]

I am NOT obsessed by samurais in any way.Never said you were.
like you I too need proof, therefore I asked you or anyone else which says that there were any who were better to supply it.Yes, but like I said, you can't just make a statement and then challenge other people to prove you wrong. This isn't the way people argue.
While studying history we can't concretely prove anything since there may lots of info lost or missing.Therefore the genral belief part or acceptance of limited facts.This is just wrong. There are no guarantees that general belief is well-informed, and it tends to be the case that it isn't.

[AJ Wolfhowl]

Never said you were.
You and KCG were definately trying to show it as such.

Yes, but like I said, you can't just make a statement and then challenge other people to prove you wrong. This isn't the way people argue.


I know that, I agree and I can't prove my point right now, I said that like in my every post...When I first made that statement I didn't think it would be challenged as such for me to bother about proving it.(esp. by you, you seemed to know something about them.)

People believed that the earth was flat until the day it was proven to be round...What do you make of that? :y-wink3:
There are many other examples but those are more or less science oriented so this one probably keeps it most simple.

BTW I said probably it's nearly impossible for me to exactly prove it to you.I could search for the evidence provided by historians who but i really don't have time.


This is just wrong. There are no guarantees that general belief is well-informed, and it tends to be the case that it isn't.

Again I must say you don't really understand : The genral belief
(It is something of which you have drawn conclusion of by limited facts and hence not concrete.) isn't among us commoners but its between the people who study such things.

P.S. what about the last thing I asked you ? The SPF really has a lot of brotherhood type feeling so I have seen many SPF'ers defend each other, is this one of those cases ?

[Nephalim]

You and KCG were definately trying to show it as such.OK, I never was, and I don't care what KCG was trying to do.
(esp. by you, you seemed to know something about them.)And I do.
People believed that the earth was flat until the day it was proven to be round...What do you make of that? :y-wink3:I'd consider this more a point against you clinging to "general belief."P.S. what about the last thing I asked you ? The SPF really has a lot of brotherhood type feeling so I have seen many SPF'ers defend each other, is this one of those cases ?No. Believe it or not, someone legitimately disagrees with you. KCG can handle himself just fine. He doesn't need anyone to jump to defend his honour. Mouthing off at a friend will earn you the wrath of the forum vets, but simply disagreeing with him will not.

You have no argument. You've admitted little experience in this area, and have been countered by people with actual points and evidence. You respond with excuses for why you can't prove them wrong (which, as I said, I don't care about) and then attempt to discredit my standpoint as the product of bias.

[AJ Wolfhowl]

And I do.

So you think they made bad swords and didn't have good skills ?

I'd consider this more a point against you clinging to "general belief."

This was just a simple example that almost everybody can relate to ...
Bohr's theory of the atom was confirmed by many experimental results was thought to be correct by most scientists...Later it was proved to be wrong.

Remind me now, which 'evidence' did you exactly provide ??

I never said I didn't have experience in this area. Unless you have actually tested the material of the swords, their durability, flexibility, sharpness etc. yourself I probably have the same experience as you.

Infact your arguments have been as hollow or as deep as mine.This argument is pointless, niether I can prove anything to you or you to me, so just leave it be.

[Magranion]

actually intersting point for KCG pandas and racoons are of the same family which consists of only three species the racoon, the red panda and the giant panda. Hope you all like the little fun fact.

[Nephalim]

So you think they made bad swords and didn't have good skills ?I don't think that, and no one's said that.
This was just a simple example that almost everybody can relate to ...
Bohr's theory of the atom was confirmed by many experimental results was thought to be correct by most scientists...Later it was proved to be wrong.See the moral of that story still tells me to second guess general belief.
Remind me now, which 'evidence' did you exactly provide ??None. Nor did I ever claim to. Diskord, on the other hand, DID provide some evidence.
Infact your arguments have been as hollow or as deep as mine.This argument is pointless, niether I can prove anything to you or you to me, so just leave it be.The only argument I've made is that yours doesn't hold any water. You made a statement, were challenged to back it up, and haven't. You've just asked others to prove you wrong on what is ultimately a subjective matter.

[AJ Wolfhowl]

japanese swords in the old days werent all THAT good. sure, the methods used to make them were insanely difficult and produced good results. however, as is often the case with insanely difficult things, people do them because they have to.

japanese swordsmithing became advanced because the metals in japan were sucky, crappy and bad. they HAD to make the swords like they did because otherwise they would be bloody useless.

once the japanese were given GOOD metals, however, and applied the same technique, then we can talk about superior weaponry. however, by that time swords were obsolete cause the good metal came in the form of bullets.

lol. A better explanation : they exchanged anime' for swords with aliens.
They had 'good metal' for a really long time.

Neph : Never doubted KGC's ability to defend himself...not only can he do that fine but he can be the most offensive poster as well.

You either have a seriously low understanding power or you have no idea how scientific growth works.
The moral of the story was many things are laws not theorems so they were never proven right but were never proven wrong.Things like that are considered to be true unless proven wrong.

I am not going to back it up, I am not trying to convince you in any manner, I can't bother about what six billion people think as right or wrong.

My statement was if I am wrong, could you show me some proof ? Not I am right cause you can't prove me wrong.
It doesn't take a genius to understand that.

As I said there is no point to this discussion since it is not coming of any conclusion.

[Nephalim]

The moral of the story was many things are laws not theorems so they were never proven right but were never proven wrong.Things like that are considered to be true unless proven wrong.This isn't a thing like that.

Bohr didn't just waltz into the scientific community claiming that this is how electrons work with no evidence or reason to back him up. Like you said, he did a ton of experiments that proved his results. You just came in here and said that katanas were the best swords in the world and that samurai were the most talented warriors in the world. When challenged, you repeated yourself, offered no actual response, and instead gave reasons why would couldn't prove it. Your latest response to Diskord's rather explicit description of the fact that they lacked metal of decent quality was pretty much "No they didn't."

I don't think it's too much to ask that people can give legitimate reasons for sweeping statements they make. Evidently, you do, and are now refusing to do so on principle. I suppose that's your perogative.

[AJ Wolfhowl]

Too late to make ammends on my last post....
Disko : if it seems offensive, it wasn't meant so.

Neph : I thought when you asked for evidence you meant I should get a link to a site which supported my views and was qualified enough on this topic.It was that which I don't have the time to do.

Apparently it is not so, if you call disko's statements evidence...

The Samurai's had swords with their blades so curved that only 1 pt comes in contact with a surface, hence focusing all that force to give rise to immense pressure therefore giving rise to devastating effects ( It could slice through armour.)
(Unlike most swords which were plain straight.)

The inner layers were focused on strength and flexibilty while the outer layers provided a sharp edge and were resistant to corrosion.
This multi layering was the key in making brilliant swords.

On the skill of the samurai, I would say, they had a religious aspect to their swordfighting, hence they dedicated their lives trying to perfect their swordfighting techniques.
They even went as far as to mention their swords had a soul and it united with you if you respected it and did the best to increase your skill.
( A similar case was with their blacksmiths, they kept perfecting their techniques till they got it right, not for the lack of good metal.)

[Pureauthor]

Samanosuke Akechi >>> Jacques Blanc

But Siegfried Schutaffen/Nightmare >>> Heishiro Mitsurugi.

Hmm... decisions, decisions.

Now, concerning Panderens, I wish they were a playable race in WOW. Now THAT would be worth plunking down S$30 for. But as it is, they don't have, I can't be bothered to buy WOW, and I'll still have ol' Carl for company.

Carl: Leave me out of this.

Anyway, Panderens rock. Especially Brewmasters.

[yunn]

WoW is only SGD30? How much per month? We can play it here in SG?

[Rowan Seven]

Well, I asked my Japanese history professor today about the quality of Japanese swords, and he confirmed that they were some of the best in the world. Now, since he's a published author, head of the college's Asian Studies department, has spent time in Japan, and examined all manner of Japanese artifacts including swords, I'm willing to take his word on this. _However_, it is important to remember that, although samurai owned swords, they served more as symbols and signs of status than actual weapons used in true combat. Yes, Japanese swords were some of the strongest and most flexible in the world, but they still could break if you used them, and one would not want to go around damaging a very valuable sword. In Japanese warfare, pikes and later firearms were the weapons of choice.

[Rowan Seven]

Gah. Let me partially rephrase that. Samurai swords were used as weapons, but they were more of a back-up weapon. The Tokugawa Bakufu permitted samurai to carry swords so, naturally, if there was a spur of the moment battle or assassination attempt swords would likely be used because swords were what the samurai had on them. However, in actual warfare, pikes and, later, firearms were preferred and more commonly used.

[AJ Wolfhowl]

In support of my previous post the Japs and Samurai were most noted for them defeating the mongols...The swords of those times were considered masterpieces, hence no question that 'good metal' was available back then.
JSYK disko bullets weren't invented till then.

(Again I still won't provide hard evidence for this, confirm it yourself if you're interested, I'm in no mood to educate the likes of you.)

KCG needs no one to jump to defend his honour.
lol. A classic case of "you know you play too much warcraft when...".

P.S. Neph :Glad you finally dropped the convo.This is probably my last post on this topic too.

[Pureauthor]

That depends. By late 1500s they had firearms, and Warlord Nobunaga Oda used them well in his bid to control Japan. (Several versions of 'history' have him commanding an army of supernatural Genma demons, but let's not go there)

This is entirely dependant on what time you refer to, of course.

[yunn]

Oi, SG dude, u still haven't answer me question! Don't ignore me leh..

[Pureauthor]

No, no, it'll cost something like 70 to 100 dollars for the game itself. The 30 I was referring to was the monthly fee.