Frostwolf Clan

[Flinn Gaidin]

What were they called before Durotan (<--did I spell that right?) took them to Alterac and met the Frostwolves?

[socal]

Twilight Hammer I believe, hence the hammer that Thrall wields aswell as the vast majority of Raiders/wolves.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Um...I think you are mistaken. The Frostwolf Clan has always been the Frostwolf Clan, just like the Warsong and Shattered Hand Clan. Their bond with wolves comes from the fact that they actually had a shaman. Thrall's hammer (and his armor) were the former property of Ogrim Doomhammer, who himself was a member of the Blackrock Clan.

[Flinn Gaidin]

Um...I think you are mistaken.
That's putting it mildly...I read some where that Doomhammer was from the Thunderlord Clan (?)
The reason I asked is they only met the Frostwolves in Alterac, therefore it doesn't seem likely they would name themselves after something they had never seen/met...
There aren't wolves on Draenor are there?

[Kingcrazygenius]

As a matter of fact I think they do have wolves on Draenor. Or used to. Or had a physically similar equivilant.

About Doomhammer and the Thunderlords, the Blackrock clan either branched off from the Thunderlords or the Thunderlord Clan changed its name.

[Nephalim]

The Thunderlords were very raider-heavy, and the variety of wolves native to Draenor were known as Darkwolves, and these were the mounts raiders used in Warcraft 1.

Doomhammer rose to power through the Thunderlords, but he was a member of the Blackrock Clan. The Thunderlords and Blackrocks were always allied and had strong ties to each other, but were two separate entities. The Blackrock was among the largest and strongest clans on Draenor. I believe it branched off from the Bleeding Hollow, or vice versa, but probably the Blackrock came from the Bleeding Hollow only because the Bleeding Hollow was said to be quite large. Their relationship is clarified in the Warcraft 2 manual, so if someone could look it up, I don't have it with me.

And keep in mind there's also the possibility that they named the wolves after the clan, and not the other way around.

[Kingcrazygenius]

And here I thought Doomhammer rose to power by defeating the blue orcs in mission four. Or was it five?

[Nephalim]

Well, "rose to power through the Thunderlords" is pretty much a quote from the manual. I assume they meant to the station of high-ranking general as opposed to Warchief.

[KillAllZerg]

He whacked the old Warchief when Gul'dan was knocked out cold (the warlock was attached to Mediveh's mind when he was kill, so Gul'dan got a backlash), then proclaimed himself to be the new Warchief. Thats why Rend and Maim never got along with him, 'cause he killed their daddy. :lol:

Anyways, the Frostwolf clan had its name long before the orcs ever knew of Azeroth. When they were exiled due to Durotar's continued defiance to Gul'dan's ban of shamanism, the whole clan where banished to the Alterac mountians. It was there that they first encountered the white wolves, and their shamans were able to befriend them. It seems fitting that the clan were abled to recieve help from the animal that it was named after. :y-square:

Also, the Frostwolf clan was the only clan to retain the Wolfriders, because they were not effected by Doomhammer's decree to ban the honored warriors form the Horde (Gul'dan convinced him that they were plotting against him). After the Horde lost its only mounted unit, Gul'dan created the original DeathKinghts: the reanimated bodies of the fallen knights of Azeroth and their steeds, now infused with the minds and spirits of former members of the Shadow Counsel (who were whacked when Doomhammer learned of them).

[Diskordjah]

wasnt the blackrock clan created in Azeroth though, by clanless warriors (and some clanmembers who simply switched) and named after the great big mountain?

[socal]

wasnt the blackrock clan created in Azeroth though, by clanless warriors (and some clanmembers who simply switched) and named after the great big mountain? I was thinking the same thing. The Blackrock Clan was formed by orcs from other clans (bleeding h, burning s, shadowmoon) and they were to look over the portal.

[Nephalim]

You may be right. I only have the Gul'dan story to go off (which does refer to Blackrock as a young clan), I lack the clan profiles at the moment. But if that's the case, then Doomhammer may have been a member of the Thunderlords after all.

[Flinn Gaidin]

I'm pretty sure the whole branch off/clanless warrior thing was the Black Tooth Grin Clan splitting off from the Blackrock Clan...
And here I thought Doomhammer rose to power by defeating the blue orcs in mission four. Or was it five?
No that was when Gul'dan took the Stormreavers along with Cho'gall and the Twilight's Hammer Clan to raise the Tomb of Sargeras (I just played that mission...).
And the Thunderlord Clan was left on Draenor so we know that they didn't change their name from Thunderlord to Blackrock (I played the Human BtDP a short time ago...).
And keep in mind there's also the possibility that they named the wolves after the clan, and not the other way around.
I dunno, one would think that the Humans would have been the ones to have named them, seeing as they were the occupants of Alterac at the time.
Anyways, the Frostwolf clan had its name long before the orcs ever knew of Azeroth. When they were exiled due to Durotar's continued defiance to Gul'dan's ban of shamanism, the whole clan where banished to the Alterac mountians. It was there that they first encountered the white wolves, and their shamans were able to befriend them. It seems fitting that the clan were abled to recieve help from the animal that it was named after.
There is a small conflict in what you say there, hence my original question...

[Flinn Gaidin]

I'm pretty sure the whole branch off/clanless warrior thing was the Black Tooth Grin Clan splitting off from the Blackrock Clan...
Looks like I'm right...
Rend, son of Blackhand, brother of Maim and Griselda, is one of the leaders of the Black Tooth Grin Clan. After their father’s assassination, Rend and his brother Maim took what followers they could and splintered off from the Blackrock Clan, making the Black Tooth Grin. They did this to retain some of the power which they believed was their birthright, and also to ensure that Doomhammer would take no action against them.

He did, however, weaken their position when he disbanded the Sythegore Arm, and the raiders became grunts. They seated deep within the Black Morass, demanding responsibility over the Portal.

Rend and Maim, honoured by the loyalty of the Dragonmaw Clan, masterminded the capture of Alexstrasza the Dragonqueen, and delivered her to Grim Batol.

They were captured during the final battles of the Alliance, and herded into containment camps.

Rend and Maim went back through the portal with Kilrogg and the Bleeding Hollow clan, but did not join his force when he returned to Azeroth. Likewise, they did not go with Ner'zhul when he entered the Twisting Nether. Instead, they survived the Cataclysm, and waited for death to claim them.

But it did not.

Magtheridon, a great, brutal general of the Burning Legion, came to the shattered Draenor through Ner'zhul's gateways and brought with him a demonic army. He rallied the surviving orcs together, and made them his servitors, and Maim, for all his savagery and affinity for destruction, was empowered with deadly abilities and became one of his strongest agents, leading the Horde of Agony against all the foes of Magtheridon.

But when Illidan came to Outland with his armies, Magtheridon recalled all his forces to his Black Citadel, and Maim blocked the path of the Demon Hunter's forces. Maim and his minions were destroyed.
Here's the URL, look for Rend or Maim: http://www.lunarfalls.com/WarCraft/index.html

[Kingcrazygenius]

No that was when Gul'dan took the Stormreavers along with Cho'gall and the Twilight's Hammer Clan to raise the Tomb of Sargeras (I just played that mission...).
And the Thunderlord Clan was left on Draenor so we know that they didn't change their name from Thunderlord to Blackrock (I played the Human BtDP a short time ago...).

You are very very mistaken. I am speaking of the events in Warcraft I that led to Blackhand being assassinated and Ogrim Doomhammer becoming the new warchief, whereas you are talking about something totally different.

[Flinn Gaidin]

I'm not mistaken, we just weren't talking about the same thing....

[Flinn Gaidin]

Looks like I'm right...

Here's the URL, look for Rend or Maim: http://www.lunarfalls.com/WarCraft/index.html
I feel silly and foolish...Nephalim, is this your site?
Cause if it is, you should know this stuff and I shouldn't need to quote it and feel silly after showing you your own wordses :y-curtain <--*hides*

[Diskordjah]

there there, it does one's character good to feel folish every now and then. keeps ya humble! :y-wink2:

[Flinn Gaidin]

there there, it does one's character good to feel folish every now and then. keeps ya humble! :y-wink2:
I know... :y-crazy: :y-sunny: :y-crazy:

[Kingcrazygenius]

I'm not mistaken, we just weren't talking about the same thing....

You wrote what you wrote directly after quoting me. Either you are utterly incompotent or you are a hideous liar.

[Flinn Gaidin]

You wrote what you wrote directly after quoting me. Either you are utterly incompotent or you are a hideous liar.
I have no idea what you're on about old chap...

[Kingcrazygenius]

And here I thought Doomhammer rose to power by defeating the blue orcs in mission four. Or was it five?

No that was when Gul'dan took the Stormreavers along with Cho'gall and the Twilight's Hammer Clan to raise the Tomb of Sargeras (I just played that mission...).
And the Thunderlord Clan was left on Draenor so we know that they didn't change their name from Thunderlord to Blackrock (I played the Human BtDP a short time ago...).

You can feign ignorance no longer.

[Flinn Gaidin]

And what's wrong with that?
You were talking about WC which I haven't played much of :y-sad: and I was talking about WC2 where the Stormreavers are; blue...

[Nephalim]

I'm gonna present a more concise argument once I get my paws on my Warcraft 2 manual (and someone here HAS to have it in reach, so please consult it), but here's what I know to be certain:

No one's saying that one clan entirely became another. But the Blackrock Clan WAS, we know, a new clan at the time of the first Warcraft. And THIS is the relationship we're trying to clarify right now. The Blackrock Clan had to come from somewhere, and the Thunderlords, Bleeding Hollow, and Lightning's Blade are prime candidates. The Black Tooth Grin was formed after the first war, so that doesn't really have anything to do with this.

[Diskordjah]

Lightnings Blade, weren't the suspects of being a clerical error? theyre only referenced to once, and that it was actually meant to be Burning Blade?

anyway, I think the Blackrocks are made up of orcs of several different clans as well as some clanless, that they flocked under one banner for the sole purpose of conquest of azeroth.

[Kingcrazygenius]

And what's wrong with that?
You were talking about WC which I haven't played much of :y-sad: and I was talking about WC2 where the Stormreavers are; blue...

So why quote me if you are talking about something totally different? That's kinda...stupid.

[Flinn Gaidin]

I'm gonna present a more concise argument once I get my paws on my Warcraft 2 manual (and someone here HAS to have it in reach, so please consult it), but here's what I know to be certain:

No one's saying that one clan entirely became another. But the Blackrock Clan WAS, we know, a new clan at the time of the first Warcraft. And THIS is the relationship we're trying to clarify right now. The Blackrock Clan had to come from somewhere, and the Thunderlords, Bleeding Hollow, and Lightning's Blade are prime candidates. The Black Tooth Grin was formed after the first war, so that doesn't really have anything to do with this.
You mean the Burning Blade, methinks.
Though this has little to do with the thread topic...um, it might after all; if the Blackrock was a new clan, Durotar might have just taken some orcs to Alterac and made them into a clan, naming them after the Frostwolves...

EDIT: I started to write this post a long time ago....Disko said it already :y-crazy:
KCG: At the time I thought you were speaking of WC2...

[Nephalim]

Lightnings Blade, weren't the suspects of being a clerical error? theyre only referenced to once, and that it was actually meant to be Burning Blade?Well I don't think it a stretch to say that there were orc clans who were not involved in the main conflict, and it also makes little sense to me that the Burning Blade would be so closely associated with the Thunderlords. The Thunderlords and the Bleeding Hollow seem to represent the old (as in pre-Gul'dan) ways whereas the Burning Blade was all about demonic corruption. On top of that, if it was a clerical error, they left it alone in the BNE reprint.

But, naturally, I acknowledge the possibility.
Durotar might have just taken some orcs to Alterac and made them into a clan, naming them after the Frostwolves...Durotan was a chieftain long before his clan's exile.

I think another possibility may be that frostwolves existed in some form on Draenor, and that the clan settled in the Alterac upon finding the Azerothien breed. Though I still think that they simply may have renamed the wolves after their clan.

Keep in mind that the frostwolves possess no supernatural powers, and aside from a white coat, are indistinguishable from normal wolves. So the humans in the area may have never thought to make that distinction.

[WarDragon]

Keep in mind that the frostwolves possess no supernatural powers, and aside from a white coat, are indistinguishable from normal wolves. So the humans in the area may have never thought to make that distinction.
Actually, according to the Manual of Monsters, some of them have a freezing breath weapon, and others deal cold damage with their claws and fangs. However, I do think it entirely likely that similar beasts existed on Draenor, and provided the name for the clan.

[TheNewHorde]

Interesting discussion. Mind if I cut in?
I thought it to be rather curious that the two brothers became part of Magthoridan's army. I mean that doesn't anyone in WC3 die anymore? Well, they do die, but they don't STAY DEAD.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Muradin
Mal'ganis
King Teranes
Uther
Antonidas
Cenarius*
Mannoroth
Tichondrius
Anetheron
Azgalor**
Archimonde
Dalvengyr
Naisha
Maiev
Magtheridon**
Detheroc
Admiral Proudmoore

I'd say plenty of characters stay dead.

*Might come back to life eventually

**Not entirely certain they died.

[Nephalim]

I mean that doesn't anyone in WC3 die anymore? Well, they do die, but they don't STAY DEAD.While this is occasionally true, Rend and Maim were never advertised as dead.

[Diskordjah]

though... Rend appears in WoW, remember? he's the new leader of the Blackrock clan.

[Kingcrazygenius]

It's a shame so few Chieftains procreated. Young Doomhammers and Hellscreams and Bladefists would have been cool.

[Terran Marine]

It's a shame so few Chieftains procreated. Young Doomhammers and Hellscreams and Bladefists would have been cool.
All hail KCG, the new Warchief of the Horde!!! (bows before his greatness)

[Kingcrazygenius]

A vindictive metamorph as Warchief...

And why not?

[Flinn Gaidin]

All hail KCG, the new Warchief of the Horde!!! (bows before his greatness)
:y-mm: :y-mm: :y-mm: Eh? Where did you come from? :y-mm: :y-mm: :y-mm:
though... Rend appears in WoW, remember? he's the new leader of the Blackrock clan.
How on Azeroth did Rend get back to Azeroth?!
He went back to Draenor before the Dark Portal was destroyed...Blizzard... *sighs*

[varulf]

Maiev

when did she die?

[Kingcrazygenius]

:y-mm: :y-mm: :y-mm: Eh? Where did you come from? :y-mm: :y-mm: :y-mm:

From a Terran Barracks, duh. I bet he has U-238 shells.

Whoa, that's an isetope for uranium. That's some crazy firepower.

when did she die?

Sometime on Draenor. She kept going after Illidan and eventually he caught her at a disadvantage and took her out. I guess despite his demon powers she was too tricksy to take on in a straight fight.

[Flinn Gaidin]

How on Azeroth did Rend get back to Azeroth?!
He went back to Draenor before the Dark Portal was destroyed...Blizzard... *sighs*
For that matter, how come there is still a Blackrock Clan? It's been wiped out two or three times already hasn't it? The last being Arthas/Scourge, in order to use the demongate they were guarding...?

[Kingcrazygenius]

I doubt the orcs would be stupid enough to all stick around a place where they were being killed by the living dead. There are always a few orcs who escape.

I think the real question is why Blackrock, a clan who's former leader systematically killed all the warlocks, decided to start up the old ways again.

[Flinn Gaidin]

I think the real question is why Blackrock, a clan who's former leader systematically killed all the warlocks, decided to start up the old ways again.
That is not a sure thing....

[Kingcrazygenius]

So you would despute that Doomhammer's purge of the shadow council never happened?

[Flinn Gaidin]

So you would despute that Doomhammer's purge of the shadow council never happened?
No, you cretin, that he was the leader of the Blackrock Clan :g-shake: :g-shake: :g-shake:

[Diskordjah]

cause when the Blackrock clan was lead by Blackhand and the Warlocks, the conquered Stormwind. when they were led by Doomhammer and had no warlocks, they got put in camps.

[Nephalim]

No, you cretin, that he was the leader of the Blackrock Clan Ok, I don't see how that's really up for argument. When Doomhammer usurped the throne. he claimed leadership over the Blackrock Clan. That IS a sure thing.

And let's keep in mind, KCG, of the philosophical differences between leaders. Blackhand was manipulated by Gul'dan into endorsing warlock magic, and then Doomhammer killed him, in part, because of that. Rend and Maim hated Doomhammer so they may have endeavored into demon worship simply out of spite.

Also remember that the Blackrock Clan was once the power centre of the Horde, so its leaders may have ignored Thrall's invites on the grounds that they think THEY should be running things.

[Kingcrazygenius]

cause when the Blackrock clan was lead by Blackhand and the Warlocks, the conquered Stormwind. when they were led by Doomhammer and had no warlocks, they got put in camps.

No, when Blackhand was incharge the orcs built three farms and a barracks, killed a chick and her ogre boyfriends, and attacked a town who's name I forget. It was Doomhammer who was incharge when they sacked Stormwind.

And yeah, that makes sense Neph.

[Nephalim]

That's true. When they took out Stormwind, Doomhammer was in charge. Disk you're probably mixed up because Blackhand was promoted to Warchief after the initial attack on Stormwind (led by Kilrogg and Cho'gall) was repelled.

And it's probably safe to say that there were still warlocks involved in the final attack on Stormwind. Doomhammer's attack on the Shadow Council crippled it, but didn't destroy it utterly. Otherwise, among other things, Cho'gall wouldn't have made it to Warcraft 2. Additionally, the orcs were still entranced by their demonic bloodlust that they didn't suffer withdrawal from until AFTER their capture at the end of their failed campaign, which means that there was still demon magic being used until their defeat. And then of course there's all the survivng warlocks in the Broken Isles.

[Flinn Gaidin]

No, when Blackhand was incharge the orcs built three farms and a barracks, killed a chick and her ogre boyfriends, and attacked a town who's name I forget. It was Doomhammer who was incharge when they sacked Stormwind.

And yeah, that makes sense Neph.
Grand Hamlet, mayhaps?

[Kingcrazygenius]

Probably, but in the end it is irrelevent.

[Flinn Gaidin]

Probably, but in the end it is irrelevent.
Hmmm...that reminds me, what is the topic of my thread now?

[Kingcrazygenius]

At this point I will assume you blind and/or stupid, and then point at the title of the thread.

[Flinn Gaidin]

That hasn't been the topic for quite a while now, even though I've tried to nudge it back in the right direction, a time or two...

[Blastcan]

Having gone to Blackrock Spire and killed Rend Blackhand myself, I can say that some of you guys are very wrong.

There is an NPC in Blackrock Spire that tells you the history of the Blackrock Clan up to that point in World of Warcraft. Rend and Maim never served Magtheridon, they retreated to Blackrock Spire after the loss in the Second War along with a sizable number of Horde. After which they went to war with the Thaurissan dwarves in a proverbial stalemate until the Black Dragonflight came and set up shop.

Maim is officially dead before the start of the game, killed in the war against the Thaur-modan dwarves in the Blackrock Depths.

Blackrock Mountain is a huge Thaur-modan fortress. The lower levels are dominated by the Thaurissan dwarves and the upper levels are dominated by the Blackrock Clan and the Black Dragonflight.

Blackrock Clan is allied with forest trolls and ogres, as well as Nefarion 'Blackwing' of the Black Dragonflight, Deathwing's son. Nefarion is the true mastermind behind the Blackrock Clan.

The Blackrock Clan's goal is to complete the magically-engineered Chromatic Dragonflight to serve in Deathwing's future army.

[Kingcrazygenius]

That is very interesting. I bet chromatic dragons taste great.

[Flinn Gaidin]

That is very interesting. I bet chromatic dragons taste great.
I'll second that...what rubbish... :y-mm: :y-mm: :y-mm:

[Rowan Seven]

The Blackrock Clan's goal is to complete the magically-engineered Chromatic Dragonflight to serve in Deathwing's future army.

If you don't mind me asking, what exactly is a chromatic dragon? Thanks for the information, by the way.

[Lord Kil'jaeden]

In some role playing "paper" games, chromatic dragons are creatures empowered with powers from all the elements.

In AD&D (at the time i played it was the 2nd edition, but i guess it remains valid for the actual one) by example, one chromatic dragons had several heads and each of those heads used a different element-based breath or power.

I am not sure about the warcraft chromatic dragons, but from screenshots i saw, the blackrock warchief Rend is riding a chromatic dragon.

[Nephalim]

I'm glad they threw out the Rend & Maim in Outland thing. It didn't make a tremendous amount of sense. I guess it was just another couple of guys with the rather generic names.

[Flinn Gaidin]

They return to Draenor or not?

[Kingcrazygenius]

I swear you are deficient in the cortex. Read the damn thing and you should come to the horrifically obvious conclusion that they did NOT return to Outland. I say should because you obviously didn't come to said horrifically obvious conclusion.