Orcs & Humans?

[Rowan Seven]

The first Warcraft game was subtitled "Orcs & Humans". In Warcraft II the orcish clans and human kingdoms continued their war with new allies, and in the expansion the Alliance took the fight to the orc's homeworld. "Reign of Chaos" opened with a cinematic battle between a human and an orc, and in "The Frozen Throne" Grand Admiral Proudmoore launched an attack against the new orc homeland Durotar. Throughout this saga one recurring theme has been the antagonism between orcs and humans. One could have even gone so far as to call them racial enemies.

However, in "World of Warcraft" something seems to be...different. Humans and orcs still, for the most part, don't get along, but the conflict between them appears somewhat muted. In its place are new racial antagonisms: Tauren vs. Ironforge Dwarf, Forsaken vs. Human, and Orc vs. Night Elf. The Darkspear Tribe of Jungle Trolls and Gnomes have their own enemies outside, respectively, the Alliance and Horde. The cinematic for "World of Warcraft" solidly supports these new dynamics (although, personally, I was disappointed the cinematic didn't include trolls and gnomes).

Does anybody else see this? If so, what do you make of it? I'm actually finding myself kind of surprised that Night Elves and Forsaken have taken the place of Humans and Orcs, at least in my opinion. It feels like…a significant change has taken place in Azeroth and that one can no longer take for granted characteristics of the world of Warcraft that used to seem all but immutable.

[Diskordjah]

in WoW, the humans have been decimated to the point where they pose no threat to orcs, especially since said orcs are on the other side of the world. the humans are battling the forsaken because theyre currently the biggest threat against humanity as a race. orcs are busy establishing their rule over the arid regions of the barrens, and are mainly fighting to rid themselves of the last demonic taints.

tauren vs dwarves are a bit new to me though...

[Kingcrazygenius]

I have a hard time picturing why ANY race aside from Centaur would have issues with the Tauren. From what I've seen the Tauren and Dwarves have quite a bit in common, what with their both having access to rune thingies.

[WarDragon]

I'd say that Tauren and Dwarves are antagonists precisely BECAUSE they're so similar. Both are staunchly honorable and loyal, both have an ancient connection to the Titans, both are physical bruisers, etc. However (as I understand it), the Tauren feel that the Dwarves' archaeological (sp?) digs are nothing but well-intentioned desecration of holy ground; whereas the Dwarves not only have some trouble looking past the Taurens' appearance, they refuse to let anyone prevent them from uncovering the mysteries of their past.

Quite a shame; two of my favorite races going at it like that...

[Cerebral_009]

Your point is a valid one, and one I had previously given little thought to. There are still pockets of 'old school' orc and human rivalries.... Like in Larkeshire. The Blackrocks continue to harass the humans there, and they are demon worshipers, throwbacks from the second war who are disenfranchised and imbittered.

There has most definately been a distinction set on the orcs... specifically the 'new' horde. They are far less concerened by humans... and seem to spend a good deal of time harrying Night elves and fighting petty skirimshes over the Barrens/Ashenvale territory boundaries... Not to mention their involvment with the venture co. Which pisses the Night Elves off no end.

[Romanov77]

So the Blackrock clan still lives??

I cant belive that it survived the purge of the Alliance, and later, the slaughter made by Arthas and his undead minions...

[Reign of Kalos]

So the Blackrock clan still lives??

I cant belive that it survived the purge of the Alliance, and later, the slaughter made by Arthas and his undead minions...
They aren't a huge army like they were in the wars, it's like a village or two at most. The clan has fallen greatly in numbers, but considering Stormwind doesn't have thier own armies at home to fend them off or kill them for good, they are making life difficult for the villagers of Lakeshire, and what's left of thier townguard. They simply weren't designed for a larger scale warfare such as a large hostile group of orcs.

[Romanov77]

They aren't a huge army like they were in the wars, it's like a village or two at most. The clan has fallen greatly in numbers, but considering Stormwind doesn't have thier own armies at home to fend them off or kill them for good, they are making life difficult for the villagers of Lakeshire, and what's left of thier townguard. They simply weren't designed for a larger scale warfare such as a large hostile group of orcs.

Wait...were are the Stormwind armies??

(I hate WoW :g shake: )

[Diskordjah]

ive always wondered a bit bout where the stormwind armies are...

and the blackrock are going quite strong, seeing as theyre in league with black dragons AND have the blackrock spire...

[Romanov77]

AND have the blackrock spire...

This alone is an insult to the memory of Lord Lothar.

What the hell is waiting Stormind to send an real army and burn the place to the ground again??

[Reign of Kalos]

This alone is an insult to the memory of Lord Lothar.

What the hell is waiting Stormind to send an real army and burn the place to the ground again??
Well apparently the armies are away fighting "the savage horde", according to the human introduction. Unfortunantly they all seem to have gone into the malstrom or something or thier way, because the horde side doesn't really have that many humans pestering them, certainly no huge Azerothian armies at Ogrimmar's doorstep.

They just don't have the man power to force them out of Lakeshire.

Disko, sadly as I only got into the beta for 5 days, I only managed to visit four human areas, lakeshire being the last. I had no idea the black dragons were allied with thier orcish friends in Azeroth. Sadly the disadvantages of a lack of time to see everything.

[twisted orc]

Well apparently the armies are away fighting "the savage horde", according to the human introduction. Unfortunantly they all seem to have gone into the malstrom or something or thier way, because the horde side doesn't really have that many humans pestering them, certainly no huge Azerothian armies at Ogrimmar's doorstep..

wth... but... stormwind was reconstructed in a few years, no? how it can build a substantial army?

[Reign of Kalos]

wth... but... stormwind was reconstructed in a few years, no? how it can build a substantial army?
Well Stormwind is a city. You can make buildings, but you can't magically summon more people. All those that live there are refugees coming back to thier homeland, or people from the plaguelands who fled. It's one of the reasons why they're in such a bad shape, they don't have a substantial army. We're talking about a nation that's gone through hell and back, lost most of it's allies, and what little fighting force it had is now engaged in combat with two big enemies. The Azerothians are not in the best of positions, and the problems at home are escalating without a strong military presence to strike down any problematic forces.

[Diskordjah]

Romanov, sure we dont have any volcanos in sweden, and you got vesuvio and all, but are you SURE its possible to burn a volcano down?

[Grt490]

Wait...were are the Stormwind armies??

(I hate WoW :g shake: )


I think that the main bodies of both factions are currently in Northrend, attempting to dislodge the Lich King, or they are in the, to my knowledge, yet to opened area of Hyjal fighting the demons and dragons that were said to be there in the original lore thread.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Romanov, sure we dont have any volcanos in sweden, and you got vesuvio and all, but are you SURE its possible to burn a volcano down?

Should the fires reach a temperature so high that oxygen begins rapidly combining with the stone, then yes.

[Reign of Kalos]

I think that the main bodies of both factions are currently in Northrend, attempting to dislodge the Lich King, or they are in the, to my knowledge, yet to opened area of Hyjal fighting the demons and dragons that were said to be there in the original lore thread.
While the second one has a chance, and might be happening, the first possibility seems unlikely. Why? There are undead running amock in what was Lordearon, why go to Northrend to fight the undead there, when there are many much closer, and more active threat to the nation, closer? It is almost certain they are in Kalimdor, just listen to the WoW introduction. Whenever you build a new character, you get a little cinematic ingame, that tells you a little bit about your race. It clearly states for the humans, that the armies of Stormwind are "away fighting the savage Horde". That's sort of hard to confuse with "Up at the roof of the world, trying to end the undead threat for good". If anywhere, the most likely place is Kalimdor.

[Rowan Seven]

However (as I understand it), the Tauren feel that the Dwarves' archaeological (sp?) digs are nothing but well-intentioned desecration of holy ground; whereas the Dwarves not only have some trouble looking past the Taurens' appearance, they refuse to let anyone prevent them from uncovering the mysteries of their past.

WarDragon, you've hit the nail on the head. The enmity between the Tauren and Ironforge Dwarves is nowhere near the level of the hatred between Humans and Orcs, but their different views in regards to ruins and "holy" sites is putting them in conflict with each other.

Not to mention their involvment with the venture co.

How is the "New" Horde involved with the Venture Co.? Venture Co. seems to attack Horde players on sight, as I can attest to from personal experience, and my orc shaman has received quests from Ratchet and the Steamwheedle(?) Cartel to interfere in the corporation's schemes.

and the blackrock are going quite strong, seeing as theyre in league with black dragons AND have the blackrock spire...

Well, half of Blackrock Spire or thereabouts. The Dark Iron Dwarves and Ragnaros control the dungeon levels, a fact that the black dragons and Blackrock Clan are none too happy about. According to "Lands of Conflict", Rend Blackhand calls himself Warchief and commands the Blackrock Clan. He is allied with the black dragon lieutenant Nefarion and those under him. In "World of Warcraft" there is a Horde quest to eliminate him and, presumably, an Alliance quest as well.

Why? There are undead running amock in what was Lordearon, why go to Northrend to fight the undead there, when there are many much closer, and more active threat to the nation, closer?

I agree with you that the armies probably aren't in Northrend, but the Lich King's presence in Northrend is a good reason in itself to take the fight there. Cut off the head (i.e. the Lich King), and the body (i.e. the Scourge) will likely be somewhat impaired.

[Bloodbeard]

Each race needs to keep their eyes on the home-front, as "one does not simply walk into Northrend...". An expedition to Northrend would be an enormous undertaking, and to actually damage the Lich King you would need a pretty vast army. There is no such army right now, as everyone is rebuilding and fighting on other fronts. It would take another Alliance like the Battle of Mount Hyjal to complete a feat like defeating the Lich King, and the races are having a hard enough time co-existing with themselves, let alone each other.

Not only that, the Lich King is still on the offensive to begin with, ravaging Lordaeron. It is realistic to think that "cutting off the head" of the Lich King is quite impossible at the moment.

[Romanov77]

Romanov, sure we dont have any volcanos in sweden, and you got vesuvio and all, but are you SURE its possible to burn a volcano down?

lol, comrade, I meant to burn the Orcish settlement, not the volcano itself!!

[Reign of Kalos]

I agree with you that the armies probably aren't in Northrend, but the Lich King's presence in Northrend is a good reason in itself to take the fight there. Cut off the head (i.e. the Lich King), and the body (i.e. the Scourge) will likely be somewhat impaired.
Tha'ts running on two assumptions. That the nobles of Stormwind actually know about the Lich King, where he is, and what's his significance to the Scourge. And that it will hurt the main body of the undead in Lordaeron, the Forsaken, the majority of whom are running independently. Thus A. They have remarkably good intel. B. They are willing to take the risk that the undead, unlike the zerg in a fashion, would simply fade away, on not simply march on Alliance territory while the armies are away. It's just too much of a gamble to think that they are up there. There's not enough reason for them to know, and try. Especially after that last "successful" trip that went up there. That bolstered the Lich King's stregth many times when he got his new champion. If they know all the facts, then they should be worrying about this one a great deal, simply playing right into his hands.

[Diskordjah]

I just figured out where the "alliance front" is, or at least ONE of them. its in the Alterac Valley. it kinda makes sense, geographically: nestled between scourge, forsaken and somewhat human territories.

this is all gameplay stuff but... yeah.

1) in WoW they say there will be "battlefields" for PvP, where the players will actively try to take and hold vital parts of the place, such as guardtowers and cemeteries. none of these are implemented.

2) in alterac, there are two caves guarded by Tarren Mill Deathguards and Southshore Guards respectively. outside the caves theres small fortifications and plenty of banners and whatnot, very patriotic. INSIDE both of these caves theres not yet implemented swirly portals, and the battlegrounds are supposed to be instanced. upon entering the caves, your "location" becomes designated as "alterac valley".

3) that area is something of a battlefield already, plenty of "ganking" there.

[Cerebral_009]

In response to Rowan Seven:

The Venture Co. were the among the main suppliers who sold a great many resources to the orcs who have steadily built Orgrimmar and all the new Orc Settlements from nothing. You didn't think that the orcs got al those resources from the barrens and the Ashenvale camp alone, do you?

The venture Co.'s main purpose if to make money - and who else but the fledgling orcs would require such resources, or be prepared to buy so readily from goblins etc. than a founding nation?

A smal point really, but you did ask.

=)

[Romanov77]

What are the Tarren Mill death guard??

(it feels to good to hear about an almost forgotten war2 territory...)

[Grt490]

The Tarren Mill is now very well known. It is a mid level horde town where the worst "ganking" occurs. Tarren Mill death gaurds would be the NPC gaurds of the town.

[Rowan Seven]

The Venture Co. were the among the main suppliers who sold a great many resources to the orcs who have steadily built Orgrimmar and all the new Orc Settlements from nothing. You didn't think that the orcs got al those resources from the barrens and the Ashenvale camp alone, do you?

Eh? I thought Gazlowe and the Steamwheedle Cartel were the ones the orcs hired to build Orgimmar and get them set up.

The Tarren Mill is now very well known. It is a mid level horde town where the worst "ganking" occurs. Tarren Mill death gaurds would be the NPC gaurds of the town.

Tarren Mill, eh? I think I'll try to pay this place a visit eventually.

[Diskordjah]

indeed. nice that a plausible battlefield is so close to a real fightzone.

[kooaznboi1088]

To Clarify:

1. The conflict between the few dwarves at Bael Modan and the Tauren are NOT because of similiarties but rather the opposite. One wants to keep things natural, while the short little bearded guys wants to dig and build artificial stuff on the Tauren's holy land.

2. The Venture Company is hostile to the Horde, Rowan Sevan is right it is Engineer Gazolowe and his Steamwheedle Cartel that provide The Horde with necessary materials.

3. The Darkspear Tribe is as of now going against their renegade brethren. Aside from a village in the Descolace, their main concentration is at Senjin Village and the Echo Islands. They are trying to retake their territory lost to rhonin kin.

4. Shadowleaves or someone argued with me on this issue a long time ago. He claimed that Azeroth was strong, filled with battle-ready armies. He also claimed(stupidly) that they can somehow win against the Horde if matched.
But as WoW shows, they can bearly hold their own against stuff like the Defiats, a horribly battle-strikened Blackrock Clan(Whom I hope someday will reunite with the Horde), Forsaken, and others. I agree with Kalos' assessment about Azeroth's situation and Diskorjah's assessment about the Humans' situation overall.
Seriously if you stop and think about the present state of the Humans:

1. Lorderoan... 100% destroyed, King slain, Capital taken, Lands occupied, resistance irrelevant.
2. Stromgaurde... King Dead, the surivors are having a Hard time with Forsaken already.
3. Kul Tiras... Daelin slain(hehe by Orcs), lost some guys to Horde, has an butthole leader.
4. Theramore... Bunch of refugees crowded together on an Island. Its keep at Northwatch is constantly plagued by Horde. Political strife against Jaina. Not really a threat to the Horde at all.
4. Gilneas... Having hard time with Forsaken.
5. Alterac... Never existed past the 2nd War.
7. Dalaran... Their top Archmages were killed by Arthas, countryside ravaged, hides behind a shield all day, constantly harassed by Forsaken.
6. Azeroth... King missing, little dumbass at the throne, has an evil dragon influencing its policies, having a very hard time dealing with incursions all around, strained by the flood of refugees, survivals have been through hell and back and through hell again.
7. Scarlet Crusade... I personaly think this is the force that has done the most damage to The Horde(Via its skirmishes with the Forsaken). It has plauged the free dead people more effectivly across the countryside with their guerilla warefare and magical schemes. The crusaders have given Varimathras a hard time with their nunsiance. And it is Very sad that they are the ones doing the most damage to the Horde.

5. The ganking in Tarren Mill is incredible. I too gank alot in Tarren Mill as my lvl 42 Orc Rogue. But I find that the ganking is most extreme in "NEUTRAL" cities like Ratchet, Booty Bay, and Gadgetstan. Seriously everytime an alliance does a raid, its always via Booty Bay into Ratchet. Alliance has a high ganking fatality in Ratchet. Same goes for Horde in Booty Bay. Those freakin short goblins do crap, just jump in water when they chase you and viola its gone.

6. Horde>Alliance and will always. :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap:

7. Take into consideration that Blizzard can't make Armies in WoW servers. Like The Horde doesn't have an army. Therefore Azeroth is excused from not having one as well.

[proeg]

yes, i think so, too! :bigclap: :bigclap:

[Romanov77]

Horde>Alliance and will always. :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap:


Just wait the Return of the Arch-Mage and his fellowship...

They'll rally all the shards and out of the many, they'll forge an undivisible whole...

And to the enemies of the Alliance I say:

Seek NOT to bar our way!
For we shall win through!
No matter the cost.

(A nice quote :g laugh: )

[Kingcrazygenius]

You seem to be ignoring the fact that all the Horde races are very low on numbers. The Tauren were approaching extinction, the trolls are a single tribe, and the Forsaken can't yet replentish their forces by any means.

[Romanov77]

Instead, we breed like rabbits...

[Grt490]

You seem to be ignoring the fact that all the Horde races are very low on numbers. The Tauren were approaching extinction, the trolls are a single tribe, and the Forsaken can't yet replentish their forces by any means.

On that same point the alliance is very short on numbers as well. The Night Elves lands were decimated, along with a large number of their people. The gnomes are now just a rag tag team of survivors from the devastation in Gnomeregan(sp?). As stated earlier the humans have been beaten badly across the board. The dwarves are the only race that doesn't have any type of problem when it comes to population, except the few that have been killed in the on going Trogg wars.

[kooaznboi1088]

You seem to be ignoring the fact that all the Horde races are very low on numbers. The Tauren were approaching extinction, the trolls are a single tribe, and the Forsaken can't yet replentish their forces by any means.

All the tauren tribes are united.

And its pretty sad that the Humans are having such a problem with the Forsaken if the Forsaken cannot replenish their numbers.

[Rowan Seven]

All the tauren tribes are united.

True to an extent, but let's not forget about the Grimtotem...

Anyway, it's nice to see you again. Out of curiosity, what server are you playing WoW on?

You seem to be ignoring the fact that all the Horde races are very low on numbers. The Tauren were approaching extinction, the trolls are a single tribe, and the Forsaken can't yet replentish their forces by any means.

Instead, we breed like rabbits...

Both factions appear to be operating with reduced populations. The orcs and humans have suffered greatly over the course of three wars, the gnomes and Darkspear Tribe aren't in the best of shape, the centaur and Burning Legion have dealt great damage to, respectively, the tauren and night elves, and the Forsaken, as already mentioned, have difficulty increasing their numbers. Only the dwarves seem to be in a good position, population-wise, right now, and they don't come across (to me, at least) as the most...fecund of races. Humans and orcs, however, are reputedly exceedingly prolific. Trolls likely fall under this category too, and if the Darkspear Tribe can decrease its mortality rate I can imagine a revival for them. I'd also assume that, if the gnomes manage to reclaim their city, they'll get to work increasing their numbers too. Tauren, if I remember the text of one of the Warcraft RPG books correctly, are aware of their population problems and are working to fix them, and now that the druids have left their hibernation the number of night elves in the world will probably increase as well.

At any rate, I'd give the Alliance the advantage of numbers right now, but the Horde races with the exception of the tauren seem to have much more militaristic societies which probably counters and balances this situation.

Regardless, we seem to have gotten somewhat off-topic. Do you think the racial dynamics will continue to be night elf vs orc and human vs Forsaken in the future or return to human vs orc?

[Nephalim]

And its pretty sad that the Humans are having such a problem with the Forsaken if the Forsaken cannot replenish their numbers.The Forsaken numbers ARE growing. They are raising the dead to fight for them and freeding the Scourge from Ner'zhul's control. In World of Warcraft, the character you play has just been converted from the Scourge.

As for your question, Rowan, I think that while orc vs human will always be a rather central theme to warcraft, there's just geographical inconvenience, now. But I also doubt that the night elves will harass the orcs, or more especially the tauren, unless Magatha goes nuts (THERE's an endgame I can't wait to unravel) but the undead vs human conflicts are likely going to do nothing but escalate.

[Rowan Seven]

On the subject of Magatha Grimtotem, would anybody happen to know what was in the satchel her guards requested be retrieved from Ragefire Chasm? I completed the quest but didn't think to try looking inside the bag at the time.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Wait...the Forsaken can raise the dead as well?

[kooaznboi1088]

Wait...the Forsaken can raise the dead as well?
Not raise... but more like convert.

Rowan:
It's good to be back :y-thumbsu. Satchel is on a dead tauren's body, ull find it eventually.

Dwarven poplulation isn't in its prime either. They are constantly fighting Undead and are the bridge between undead and Azeroth, so I'm not sure if they are that healthy either.

I think the population is rather even handed as of now.

If anyone is interested:

Server: Tichondurus
Name: Stanlium

[kooaznboi1088]

Also Warcraft has revolved around Orcs VERSUS Humans ever since its creation. Even the novels and parts that do not focus on the conflict have subtle hints of the conflict(In the War of the Ancients series Brox is hostile to Rhonin because he's a human).

So I think that Orcs Vs. Humans is going to be around sometime.

BTW Grats King on your MOD status, since when did you become a mod?

[Reign of Kalos]

I was under the impression that that bridge no longer exists, that Dark Iron rebels blew up the Thendol Span (Name of that great bridge) to signify thier threat and power to the Ironforge. Another threat to the dwarfs, factions fighting each other, even capturing the princess of the Bronzebeards. Things certainly aren't running smoothly for them I'll say that.

[kooaznboi1088]

I was under the impression that that bridge no longer exists, that Dark Iron rebels blew up the Thendol Span (Name of that great bridge) to signify thier threat and power to the Ironforge. Another threat to the dwarfs, factions fighting each other, even capturing the princess of the Bronzebeards. Things certainly aren't running smoothly for them I'll say that.

Doesn't change the fact that the Undead are right next door. So they are in fact the buffer zone.

And yes, more examples to support my point.

[Reign of Kalos]

Doesn't change the fact that the Undead are right next door. So they are in fact the buffer zone.

And yes, more examples to support my point.
Not quite. The bridge wasn't blown up to stop them getting across, it was just terrorism; they hadn't even gotten anywhere near to the bridge. The undead aren't exactly sitting on the coast with no resistence for miles around, in fact the fight for the city of Stromgaurde continues still with living human alliance member battling it out for domination. There is still organisation, and those remnents of empires past still bug them. If they tried a jump now, they wouldn't have enought man power in the area to truely secure the other side, and would likely be beaten back. That buffer zone you mention is far north of the bridge's remains currently. This may change as wow progresses, but currently there is a large amount of territory for the Forsaken still to quell, before they can make into those waters, and across.

[SteniS]

Taurens with rifles is really *censored* stupid!!! :y-crazy:

[xShadowleavesx]

4. Shadowleaves or someone argued with me on this issue a long time ago. He claimed that Azeroth was strong, filled with battle-ready armies. He also claimed(stupidly) that they can somehow win against the Horde if matched.
But as WoW shows, they can bearly hold their own against stuff like the Defiats, a horribly battle-strikened Blackrock Clan(Whom I hope someday will reunite with the Horde), Forsaken, and others. I agree with Kalos' assessment about Azeroth's situation and Diskorjah's assessment about the Humans' situation overall.
Seriously if you stop and think about the present state of the Humans:

1. Lorderoan... 100% destroyed, King slain, Capital taken, Lands occupied, resistance irrelevant.
2. Stromgaurde... King Dead, the surivors are having a Hard time with Forsaken already.
3. Kul Tiras... Daelin slain(hehe by Orcs), lost some guys to Horde, has an butthole leader.
4. Theramore... Bunch of refugees crowded together on an Island. Its keep at Northwatch is constantly plagued by Horde. Political strife against Jaina. Not really a threat to the Horde at all.
4. Gilneas... Having hard time with Forsaken.
5. Alterac... Never existed past the 2nd War.
7. Dalaran... Their top Archmages were killed by Arthas, countryside ravaged, hides behind a shield all day, constantly harassed by Forsaken.
6. Azeroth... King missing, little dumbass at the throne, has an evil dragon influencing its policies, having a very hard time dealing with incursions all around, strained by the flood of refugees, survivals have been through hell and back and through hell again.
7. Scarlet Crusade... I personaly think this is the force that has done the most damage to The Horde(Via its skirmishes with the Forsaken). It has plauged the free dead people more effectivly across the countryside with their guerilla warefare and magical schemes. The crusaders have given Varimathras a hard time with their nunsiance. And it is Very sad that they are the ones doing the most damage to the Horde.


That was a year ago, and there was much information we did not know yet. IIRC, you claimed that the Horde and Alliance were at peace and the Night Elves wouldn't bother the Horde if it tried to conquer the contient. Seems like that was drastically off now, doesn't it?

As to the humans, alot fo your information is wrong. First, i strongly disagree with your assumption that "resistance is irrelevant". The Argent Dawn, Scarlet Crusade, and Syndicate are all causing alot of problems for the Forsaken; in fact, they're te real human opposition the undead face, as the other human kingdoms are rebuilding in stead of fighting. That said, let's look at the information we have.

Where did you get that Gilneas is having a hard time with the Forsaken? As far as we know, Gilneas has not fought against either of the undead factions. Their only land border isn't even on undead territory (though I'm guessing that will change by the end of WoW), and if that wasn't enough they have a huge wall to keep the Forsaken out. It's important to remember that Gilneas didn't participate in any of the wars that occupied the rest of Azeroth, so I'm guessing they're far from weak at this point.

Though Dalaran is obviously weakened, the fact is there's nothing that can be done to further hurt them at this point thanks to the bubble. In addition, the wizards have clearly strengthened the city well if they're sending expeditions to Silverpine.

Nice to see you still haven't let logic cloud that strangley nationalistic love for the Horde.

[kooaznboi1088]

That was a year ago, and there was much information we did not know yet. IIRC, you claimed that the Horde and Alliance were at peace and the Night Elves wouldn't bother the Horde if it tried to conquer the contient. Seems like that was drastically off now, doesn't it?

As to the humans, alot fo your information is wrong. First, i strongly disagree with your assumption that "resistance is irrelevant". The Argent Dawn, Scarlet Crusade, and Syndicate are all causing alot of problems for the Forsaken; in fact, they're te real human opposition the undead face, as the other human kingdoms are rebuilding in stead of fighting. That said, let's look at the information we have.

Where did you get that Gilneas is having a hard time with the Forsaken? As far as we know, Gilneas has not fought against either of the undead factions. Their only land border isn't even on undead territory (though I'm guessing that will change by the end of WoW), and if that wasn't enough they have a huge wall to keep the Forsaken out. It's important to remember that Gilneas didn't participate in any of the wars that occupied the rest of Azeroth, so I'm guessing they're far from weak at this point.

Though Dalaran is obviously weakened, the fact is there's nothing that can be done to further hurt them at this point thanks to the bubble. In addition, the wizards have clearly strengthened the city well if they're sending expeditions to Silverpine.

Nice to see you still haven't let logic cloud that strangley nationalistic love for the Horde.


TO Correct your misunderstanding:

1. You claimed that the Night Elves would oppose the Horde should they try to Settle the southern part of the continent. And you my friend have been proved drastically wrong:
Barrens have been settled, Stonetalon Mts., Desolace, and other southerern territories. And guess what? Night Elves have done jack.

2. The Crusaders, syndicate, argent dawn are "only a thorn in our side" according to the quests you get in WoW. Such as the one with Varimathras and the SM run etc.
And yes, you are right they are the main resistance the Undead part of the Horde face.

3. The reason the humans havn't even struck at the Undead is because they arn't ready yet. So yeah, theya re busy rebuilding and they are still weak based on the fact they aren't even ready to handle forsaken much less the scourge.

4. As for Gilneas, what do you mean they don't border undead? Their freakin city is right next to Forsaken. This shows that you are the one who does not research before you speak. They didn't participate and now they are right next to Forsaken.

5. Well yeah, nothing can be done to hurt them. But notice that they are surrounded by hostile forces. Sure they send occasional people outside, but that doesn't chnage the fact that their outlying terrortories are being ravaged by agents sent by the Undead. I'm pretty confident though, that in future the shield will be bridged.

yes.. its always nice to see research doen before posting a rebuttal.

Kalos:

You do know that Aerie Peak, Dun Garok, etc. All dwarven terrortiores are right next to places like Tarren Mill right?

Therefore the Dwarves do in fact act as a "buffer" zone between Azeroth and the Scourge.

[Reign of Kalos]

They still have to reach that buffer zone. There is fighting behind them stopping them from even getting close to those dwarfen settlements, and that's not even setting a foot in Kahz Modan. There's battles in the vally of Alterac going on even now, if they can't even secure that which well into thier own territory well... I say Kahz Modan is no simple buffer, it's a prize of it's own to be conquered.

The forsaken don't exactly operate like that anyway. Infiltration and plaging is what they have planned, I wouldn't be suprised if death cults already operate in Stormwind anyway in secret. You can't beat that with buffers or gaps. The idea of a buffer zone is that what is behind it is safe. Against this threat, not at all. This "buffer" fails to end the threat posed at all. The Forsaken could launch a plague off with relative ease, and to great effect if past examples hold true. To prevent Stormwind falling, the dwarfs make little in the way of blocking all forms of danger. Stormwind is in danger indeed.

[kooaznboi1088]

They still have to reach that buffer zone. There is fighting behind them stopping them from even getting close to those dwarfen settlements, and that's not even setting a foot in Kahz Modan. There's battles in the vally of Alterac going on even now, if they can't even secure that which well into thier own territory well... I say Kahz Modan is no simple buffer, it's a prize of it's own to be conquered.

The forsaken don't exactly operate like that anyway. Infiltration and plaging is what they have planned, I wouldn't be suprised if death cults already operate in Stormwind anyway in secret. You can't beat that with buffers or gaps. The idea of a buffer zone is that what is behind it is safe. Against this threat, not at all. This "buffer" fails to end the threat posed at all. The Forsaken could launch a plague off with relative ease, and to great effect if past examples hold true. To prevent Stormwind falling, the dwarfs make little in the way of blocking all forms of danger. Stormwind is in danger indeed.

Not really, Dun Garok is right next to Tarren Mill, and the Forsaken sends quests to infilitrate there everyday.

As for Aerie Peak http://www.worldofwar.net/cartography/worldmap/easterncont.php
Take a look at that, and see the distance between that and Tarren Mill.

They don't even have to reach the Buffer zone, because they are right next to it.

If the Forsaken sends you to kill the dwarves at lets say Dun Garok then doesn't it mean they are in fact openly fighting?

So the Forsaken doesn't only use infiltration but outright attacks on the Dwarven Terrorory. Thats the only reason why Stormwind is still free from attacks, because they can't reach it without going through Khaz Modan

[xShadowleavesx]

TO Correct your misunderstanding:

1. You claimed that the Night Elves would oppose the Horde should they try to Settle the southern part of the continent. And you my friend have been proved drastically wrong:
Barrens have been settled, Stonetalon Mts., Desolace, and other southerern territories. And guess what? Night Elves have done jack.

2. The Crusaders, syndicate, argent dawn are "only a thorn in our side" according to the quests you get in WoW. Such as the one with Varimathras and the SM run etc.
And yes, you are right they are the main resistance the Undead part of the Horde face.

3. The reason the humans havn't even struck at the Undead is because they arn't ready yet. So yeah, theya re busy rebuilding and they are still weak based on the fact they aren't even ready to handle forsaken much less the scourge.

4. As for Gilneas, what do you mean they don't border undead? Their freakin city is right next to Forsaken. This shows that you are the one who does not research before you speak. They didn't participate and now they are right next to Forsaken.

5. Well yeah, nothing can be done to hurt them. But notice that they are surrounded by hostile forces. Sure they send occasional people outside, but that doesn't chnage the fact that their outlying terrortories are being ravaged by agents sent by the Undead. I'm pretty confident though, that in future the shield will be bridged.



1. Um, that's not what I said at all. YOU claimed that the Horde would take over all of Kalimdor south of Durotar, saying that the Night Elves would just watch because they're "tired". The Horde hasn't attempted to claim any other territories, and yet the Night Elves are still at war with them. I did not say the Night Elves would freak if the Horde occupied territory that was already theirs; Durotar is the Orc's nation, Mulgore is the Tauren's. I merely said aggressive military expansion wouldn't be tolerated. That entire argument was moot anyway, because you're claiming the Horde will subjugate other races and conquer foreign lands, something they've sworn off.

2. Again, that’s not what I said at all. I said that ignoring NPC factions was moronic because they are fighting the war against the undead while the Human nations settle internal problems and strengthen themselves. And, despite what Undead quests say, the Syndicate control a huge amount of the continent and the Scarlet Crusade is infiltrating the Forsaken's lands and holds many fortresses, so they're still a problem.

3. You basically confirmed what I said.

4. Wow, this part is just riddled with factual errors. Firstly, Gilneas is a nation; it controls the entire southern peninsula, and is thus not a city-state. In addition to that, they are not "right next to the Forsaken". Their immediate border is shared by Human refugees and beyond that Dalaran controlled territory. The Forsaken's nearest outpost is the Sepulcher in northern Silverpine.

5. Whether they're surrounded or not is irrelevant, as the city is impenetrable. You can guess all you want on whether the shield will be breached the fact is it hasn’t been, and the Forsaken are making not attempt at breaching it.

The humans of Lordaeron are certainly weak at this point, but they're much stronger than you try to make them out to be. There's no way you can have a legitimate argument unless you can put aside you bias, otherwise you just make exaggerations and guesses.

[kooaznboi1088]

1. Um, that's not what I said at all. YOU claimed that the Horde would take over all of Kalimdor south of Durotar, saying that the Night Elves would just watch because they're "tired". The Horde hasn't attempted to claim any other territories, and yet the Night Elves are still at war with them. I did not say the Night Elves would freak if the Horde occupied territory that was already theirs; Durotar is the Orc's nation, Mulgore is the Tauren's. I merely said aggressive military expansion wouldn't be tolerated. That entire argument was moot anyway, because you're claiming the Horde will subjugate other races and conquer foreign lands, something they've sworn off.

2. Again, that’s not what I said at all. I said that ignoring NPC factions was moronic because they are fighting the war against the undead while the Human nations settle internal problems and strengthen themselves. And, despite what Undead quests say, the Syndicate control a huge amount of the continent and the Scarlet Crusade is infiltrating the Forsaken's lands and holds many fortresses, so they're still a problem.

3. You basically confirmed what I said.

4. Wow, this part is just riddled with factual errors. Firstly, Gilneas is a nation; it controls the entire southern peninsula, and is thus not a city-state. In addition to that, they are not "right next to the Forsaken". Their immediate border is shared by Human refugees and beyond that Dalaran controlled territory. The Forsaken's nearest outpost is the Sepulcher in northern Silverpine.

5. Whether they're surrounded or not is irrelevant, as the city is impenetrable. You can guess all you want on whether the shield will be breached the fact is it hasn’t been, and the Forsaken are making not attempt at breaching it.

The humans of Lordaeron are certainly weak at this point, but they're much stronger than you try to make them out to be. There's no way you can have a legitimate argument unless you can put aside you bias, otherwise you just make exaggerations and guesses.

1. So you just misinterpeted me, or you are just putting words in my mouth.

2. So basicly you agree with me saying that these organizations are the only real resistance the undead faces? And by doing so you also acknowledge that the kingdoms cannot pose a threat to the undead since the syndicate and the crusaders are the main threat? By the way, unless you call some towers and a church "many fortresses", the Forsaken in fact have former Lorderoan(kingdom) secured.

3. Yeah we agree on something atleast. The human kingdoms are still weak because they aren't even ready to handle forsaken much less the scourge.

4. You are sadly mistaken, Gilneas is in fact a nation, but the "walled in city" you speak of is right next to Sepulcher(forsaken property). So how are the NOT right next to the undead?

5. Wheter they are surrounded does matter, because though nothing can invade them, they are in fact still weak. And thus proving my point about Dalaran being not much than a wreck.

EDIT:
Also, I have no bias whatsover when it comes to arguing about a subject. I, too, want to tell the real lore; you just have to be more open-minded about things that are already obvious.

Yeah you are in denial :y-thumbsd .

[Madspeter70]

sry for asking but what is "ganking"?

[Reign of Kalos]

sry for asking but what is "ganking"?
Higher players beating up those much lower than them. Considered dishonourable, as the lower has no options but to die, unless it can ind some mates to beat up the higher player. Happens in WoW all the time, very unfair on the new people. Often these people end up withsome sort of punishment, gaining a bad reputation with your side ect.

And little resistence? There is a whole dwarfen clan battling it out in the Alterac valley, and doing it well, against an orcish clan (Frostwolves). They have thir own fortress, and these battlegrounds are going to be numberous. It sounds like resistence to me, and a lot of it.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Also, I have no bias whatsover when it comes to arguing about a subject.

Let us all laugh heartily at the rediculousness that is this statement

[xShadowleavesx]

1. So you just misinterpeted me, or you are just putting words in my mouth.

2. So basicly you agree with me saying that these organizations are the only real resistance the undead faces? And by doing so you also acknowledge that the kingdoms cannot pose a threat to the undead since the syndicate and the crusaders are the main threat? By the way, unless you call some towers and a church "many fortresses", the Forsaken in fact have former Lorderoan(kingdom) secured.

3. Yeah we agree on something atleast. The human kingdoms are still weak because they aren't even ready to handle forsaken much less the scourge.

4. You are sadly mistaken, Gilneas is in fact a nation, but the "walled in city" you speak of is right next to Sepulcher(forsaken property). So how are the NOT right next to the undead?

5. Wheter they are surrounded does matter, because though nothing can invade them, they are in fact still weak. And thus proving my point about Dalaran being not much than a wreck.

EDIT:
Also, I have no bias whatsover when it comes to arguing about a subject. I, too, want to tell the real lore; you just have to be more open-minded about things that are already obvious.

Yeah you are in denial :y-thumbsd .

This really made me laugh. First of all, anyone who remembers the "Golden age of the Horde" thread will remember the outrageous claims you made that were consistently proven wrong before you finally stopped posting after 16 pages pointless flaming. You DEFINITLEY claimed that the Night Elves wouldn't stop the Orcs if they tried to conquer more land, and you said that the Horde wouldn't mind taking over other races lands because they are "just creeps".

As for the NPC organizations, they are only forces taking on the Undead. However, they're meddling is allowing the Humans to regain power undisturbed. Just look at Dalaran; it's been allowed to rebuild itself for the last four years without any opposition. In effect, the organizations are hurting the undead factions while the human kingdoms rebuild without any disruption.

As to the third point, that isn't what I said at all. We have no idea what foreign policy Gilneas, Kul Tiras, and Dalaran have adopted, and we can only guess at the former two's strength. For all we know they're just waiting for the Forsaken to make the first move; the fact that Gilneas has constructed a wall seems to confirm this. Just because they aren’t clanging their swords and marching onto the battlefield doesn’t mean they’re near death.

As for Gilneas…none of its territory is outside of the Greymane wall. There are some independent or Dalaran controlled human villages in Silverpine, but Gilneas is safe behind its wall.

How exactly does that prove your point about Dalaran? We do not know what position it is in because we have not even seen the city. All we know is that they're rebuilding it and that they're sending out expeditions.

And, I mean no offense, but you're definitely the most biased person on this forum.

[kooaznboi1088]

I was not the one flaming in that topic Shadowleaves, as I recall you were the one calling me an "idiot" and saying "I have more people that agree with me blah blah blah"

I said the NE wouldn't do jack if the Horde tried to settle the rest of the land south of Ashenvale, and guess what? I was right.

Yeah, basicly lets sum this up:
1. The Humans Kingdoms aren't taking any chances against the undead because they can't

2. These organizations are the only threats the forsaken are facing.

3. The humans might be rebuilding, but they are still weak.

Ok so we both agree on those issues.

BTW you too admit that Gilneas owns just a city and just barricaded themselves behind a wall.
Also, now that you admit they only have 1 city(yes very powerful and big nation) you also have to acknowledge yes they are right next to the Forsaken via Silverpine.

Also how strong do you think Gilneas and Kul Tiras are? The latter lost a fleet and its former leader, and the former shuts itself behind a wall. They are not near death(the very fact that they still can build a wall proves this), but they are not strong either.

As for Dalaran, can't you see that their countryside is ravaged, they are surrounded. They MIGHT be rebuilding(how they get the materials is beyond me). In fact we don't know if they are rebuilding signifigantly enough. All we know is this:

1. They were destroyed by scourge.
2. Retaken but then ravaged again.
3. Hides behind a purple shield and has its countryside in ruins. Their people outside the wall are constantly being killed.

That seems they are infact growing stronger and have a great future to look forward to /sarcasm.

Edit:

Kalos what are you talking about, I'm not sure cuz I've never played as human (haha) so... how did the Frostwolves get to Alterac? And what resistance are you even talking about?

[Reign of Kalos]

Read Blizzard's own site. One of thier WoW pages recently revealed more detail on battlezones, that will be implimented soon. The example, or first one they'll be setting up is in Alterac, supposedly deep in that "secure Forsaken" territory. As far as I know the Frostwolves have always had a base there in the mountains, back from the end of the second war. I can only guess that they elected to stay behind and watch over the humans as Thrall departed. It's always good to keep some sort of presence behind enemy lines, as they were back then. Now they are locked in battle against dwarfs, who want the area for mining, and seek to fight them out of thier own soil.

[Diskordjah]

it is, more or less, one of the frontlines that you keep hearing about in-game.

[kooaznboi1088]

Kalos:
I see, so dwarves are battling it out with orc/undead near alterac/arathi places?
Nice, if blizzard actually implements that, I woudl be first in line to kick some alliance butt.
So the dwarves are infact still in between wrynn's kingdom and the horde lands.

This raises up new questions though, postem on another thread.

[Rowan Seven]

To be fair, I think it's hard for any person to argue without bias of some sort, even if they don't realize it's present and they're making great efforts to come across as objective. Different people tend to view things differently, and perceptions can color facts.

Regardless, Gilneas is an anomaly and probably shouldn't be factored too heavily into this argument. As a nation, it appears to have remained virtually untouched by the Forsaken, the Scourge, the Third War, and the tax burdens of the Alliance before that. However, it apparently has been completely isolated from the rest of the world for several years, and it's current state is a complete unknown. Gilneas could be a powerhouse waiting for its moment to sweep across and conquer the continent, or it might've been taken over by the naga. We simply don't know, and I don't think any of us have the proper information to try making accurate guesses about the country's current strength. However, correct me if I'm wrong, Gilneas is a peninsula and should, therefore, contain more than one city.

[Kingcrazygenius]

The Naga will conquer all soon enough. They are simply too sexy not to.

[xShadowleavesx]

[QUOTE=kooaznboi1088]I was not the one flaming in that topic Shadowleaves, as I recall you were the one calling me an "idiot" and saying "I have more people that agree with me blah blah blah"

I said the NE wouldn't do jack if the Horde tried to settle the rest of the land south of Ashenvale, and guess what? I was right.

Yeah, basicly lets sum this up:
1. The Humans Kingdoms aren't taking any chances against the undead because they can't

2. These organizations are the only threats the forsaken are facing.

3. The humans might be rebuilding, but they are still weak.

Ok so we both agree on those issues.

BTW you too admit that Gilneas owns just a city and just barricaded themselves behind a wall.
Also, now that you admit they only have 1 city(yes very powerful and big nation) you also have to acknowledge yes they are right next to the Forsaken via Silverpine.

Also how strong do you think Gilneas and Kul Tiras are? The latter lost a fleet and its former leader, and the former shuts itself behind a wall. They are not near death(the very fact that they still can build a wall proves this), but they are not strong either.

As for Dalaran, can't you see that their countryside is ravaged, they are surrounded. They MIGHT be rebuilding(how they get the materials is beyond me). In fact we don't know if they are rebuilding signifigantly enough. All we know is this:

1. They were destroyed by scourge.
2. Retaken but then ravaged again.
3. Hides behind a purple shield and has its countryside in ruins. Their people outside the wall are constantly being killed.

That seems they are infact growing stronger and have a great future to look forward to /sarcasm.
QUOTE]

I'm not going to restart the whole argument, as it was one of the worst this forum has seen. But claiming that I was the only person flaming is incorrect, and you know it. In addition to that, The Horde has not taken over any territory. The Taurens and Orcs still have the borders they had after RoC. The fundamental flaw in your argument is that they do not wish to establish an empire; they are completely against the militaristic ways forced upon a generation ago.

You have a nasty habit of twisting people's words. Let's go over these points:

1. I never said the humans were "too weak". I said they were battered and needed time to rebuild, which the undead factions letting them do by pursuing a war against each other and the NPC human organizations. Besides, the only nations this applies to is Dalaran. Kul Tiras is not under any threat from the undead or the Horde and has its own problems to deal with. Stromgarde is fighting against the Syndicate, and we have no idea what Gilneas is up too.

2. The only human threat. Of course the Scourge seems to occupy nearly all of the Forsaken's thoughts.

3. I can only guess they're weak. The fact is, we have no idea what the situation in Gilneas in Dalaran is. I've been trying to access that, but you're too busy trying to make it seem as if the humans are near extinction.

You clearly know nothing about Gilneas. It's an ENTIRE NATION. It controls more than just a capital city. In addition to that, all of its territory is INACCESIBLE in WoW, so this "one city next to the Forsaken" is not Gilneas nor is Gilneas responsible for it. You seem to be talking about Shadowfang. As Rowan said, we can only guess how strong Gilneas is. We can only use the information we know to judge its strength. Given that they were untouched by the Scourge and Forsaken, were ignored during the Third War and jumped out of the Alliance when it was turning into an economic disaster points to it being in a good position. Now, it could've been run over by Naga as Roqan said, but right now all we have to go on is what I've just typed.

And as for Dalaran, you can say what you wish, but the fact is, once again, you don't know what it's like behind the dome. I would say the situation is better than you claim it is, given the fact that it was the destination for refugees and must have made enough progress to send out military expeditions and reclaim parts of Silverpine.

[IlidanStormrage]

I tried to read through all of this, but I got confused and stopped.

As for the Argent Dawn, I would like to know just what they are. I got a quest from one in Desolace to find a scepter that the Burning Blade Orcs at Blood Axe Fortress secured from some Naga and I would like to know what they are.

[kooaznboi1088]

Ok you want the situation in Dalaran? I'll give you the situation in Dalaran:

Population: 3000(As shadowleaves said, very very strong and looking great)
"A couple hundred troops probably dwell within"(Pg 90, Lands of Conflict)

History:
Arthas razed Dalaran, murdered its citizens, toppled the city's towers, and sundered its walls. Shortly after, the undead abandoneed the city to the wind and mist.
"The surviving Dalaran wizards arrived and laid claim to the ruins"(Pg 91, Lands of Conflict)

Well, so you are saying after all the crap the city(i said city) has been through, and with such a low population isolated in a purple shield and unable to do anything signifigant. You are saying they can rebuild and become strong in the future and somehow pose a huge standing against the Undead OR the situaiton they are in somehow proves your point that the Humans are not weak?

What about Gilneas? That bastion of human strength you say it is.

YOU OBVIOUSLY have not been updated. Gilneas is NO LONGER an island seperated from the Continent. It is conected and right next to the Selpulcher.
I am NOT talking about Shadowfang I am talking about Gilneas, thats right, Genn Greymane's Kingdom.

[Rowan Seven]

Gilneas is NO LONGER an island seperated from the Continent. It is conected and right next to the Selpulcher.

Hasn't Gilneas always been a peninsula though? Regardless, Gilneas' border with Silverpine is still blocked by a massive wall that seems to be doing a pretty good job of keeping people out if the human refugees camped around it are any indication.

The Taurens and Orcs still have the borders they had after RoC.

That's a somewhat misleading statement in that the Horde's territory expanded after RoC. In World of Warcraft, the orcs and trolls have Durotar, the tauren have Mulgore, the Horde dominates most of the Barrens, they have a strong presence in Stonetalon and the Thousand Needles, and they have bases in Ashenvale and seem to be trying to wrest control of the region from the night elves. There are probably other camps and settlements in Kalimdor that my orc shaman hasn't visited yet too. While in the Mulgore/Barrens/Durotar regions the borders have probably remained mostly the same since RoC/Frozen Throne, Ashenvale, Stonetalon, and Thousand Needles appear to be new developments.

Population: 3000(As shadowleaves said, very very strong and looking great)

I wouldn't trust the RPG's population statistics too much, but even if they are accurate I think you're missing an important point. Dalaran has _lots_ of mages, wizards, and sorcerers, and a few spellcasters working together and possessing the proper components can cast incredibly powerful spells. Dalaran is dangerous not because it is a great military power but because it is a _magic_ power.

The Naga will conquer all soon enough. They are simply too sexy not to.

Ah, but the Lich King's sheer coolness (no pun intended) counters that. Besides, the Lich King can raise undead naga.

[kooaznboi1088]

Kalo btw i just checked, the battlegrounds are in Alterac, far from secure Forsaken Territory.
And I still see no Frostwolves in Alterac... I think you are mistaken and the dwarves might be battling it out with soem ohter tribe.

Rowan:
Well the Horde has expanded lke you said. And do not forget the Decolace, thats under construction too.

[Reign of Kalos]

Kalo btw i just checked, the battlegrounds are in Alterac, far from secure Forsaken Territory.
And I still see no Frostwolves in Alterac... I think you are mistaken and the dwarves might be battling it out with soem ohter tribe.

Rowan:
Well the Horde has expanded lke you said. And do not forget the Decolace, thats under construction too.
http://en.wow-europe.com/pvp/battlegrounds.shtml Mistaken eh? And for the record Alterac is pretty close to the Undercity, closer than Dalaran.

[Diskordjah]

orcs n trolls have other outposts too. Stonard in swamp of sorrows still stand. Hammerfall in Arathi is pretty strong. Grom'gol in stranglethorn seems pretty secure. and lets not forget Kargath, even though that one feels a bit tenous.

[Inquisistor7]

Reading this thread gives me flashbacks to that one thread long ago wherein Kooazinboi and shadowleaves argued almost endlessly. Anyway, I find the debate over who has greater strength at the moment between the Alliance and Horde both interesting and inevitable futile. On the one hand, I am always fascinated by the current state of the conflict between factions in Warcraft, especially that between the Alliance and the Horde. On the other hand, we all know that Blizzard will never damage the Alliance or Horde to the point where they are no longer a power. So despite the fact that the Alliance is no longer as powerful as it once was, it is inevitable that they will remain important, if not rising again to great power. It will be fun to see precisely how things play out.

[Bloodbeard]

Honestly, most of the evidence points toward Gilneas being a power-house. In the Second War, they had an army that in the manual was quoted to almost rival the Army of Lordaeron. However, Greymane was not a big supporter in the Second War, and really just did not get attacked at all, save minor losses to their standing forces. So, for twenty some odd years they simply built up their forces, while everyone else struggled to recover. Then, the Scourge came and Gilneas was left alone again. A small brigade left for Kalimdor, but other than that Gilneas has only grown in power. A few years later, they more than likely have very impressive defenses and are a lock to stay powerful for some time.

[xShadowleavesx]

Ok you want the situation in Dalaran? I'll give you the situation in Dalaran:

Population: 3000(As shadowleaves said, very very strong and looking great)
"A couple hundred troops probably dwell within"(Pg 90, Lands of Conflict)

History:
Arthas razed Dalaran, murdered its citizens, toppled the city's towers, and sundered its walls. Shortly after, the undead abandoneed the city to the wind and mist.
"The surviving Dalaran wizards arrived and laid claim to the ruins"(Pg 91, Lands of Conflict)

Well, so you are saying after all the crap the city(i said city) has been through, and with such a low population isolated in a purple shield and unable to do anything signifigant. You are saying they can rebuild and become strong in the future and somehow pose a huge standing against the Undead OR the situaiton they are in somehow proves your point that the Humans are not weak?

What about Gilneas? That bastion of human strength you say it is.

YOU OBVIOUSLY have not been updated. Gilneas is NO LONGER an island seperated from the Continent. It is conected and right next to the Selpulcher.
I am NOT talking about Shadowfang I am talking about Gilneas, thats right, Genn Greymane's Kingdom.

Dear god, you love twisting my words. First of all, I ALWAYS claimed Dalaran was a city; you were the one talking about the "ravaged countryside". You've completley misread what I've been saying from the start, so I shouldn't be suprised. NEVER did i say Dalaran was turning into a huge power that would threaten the Undead. I said it was rebuilding itself with no real opposition, something that's clearly irrefutable. It's population may be small, but that's the only thing that provides strength.

You've demonstrated throughout this thread you know nothing about Gilneas. It was NEVER and island; it lies on the peninisula that branches off of south-west Lordaeron. It has a small land border with Silverpine, which is blocked by the Greymane Wall. It's not a city, and it's not next to the Sepulcher.

[kooaznboi1088]

Dear god, you love twisting my words. First of all, I ALWAYS claimed Dalaran was a city; you were the one talking about the "ravaged countryside". You've completley misread what I've been saying from the start, so I shouldn't be suprised. NEVER did i say Dalaran was turning into a huge power that would threaten the Undead. I said it was rebuilding itself with no real opposition, something that's clearly irrefutable. It's population may be small, but that's the only thing that provides strength.

You've demonstrated throughout this thread you know nothing about Gilneas. It was NEVER and island; it lies on the peninisula that branches off of south-west Lordaeron. It has a small land border with Silverpine, which is blocked by the Greymane Wall. It's not a city, and it's not next to the Sepulcher.

In the older maps, shadowleaves, Gilneas was in fact sepearted from the continent. In your argument saying that it doesn't share a border with Forsaken allowed me to think that you were looking at those maps instead of the updated ones.

WOW, Gilenas, outside of the wall, it shares a border with the following: Pyrewood(that worgen village), ambermill, Hillsbrad, AND Sepulcher. Gilneas' size has also been shortened, and aside from Zul'Dare,,, there is nothing else they control other than their capital and the land around it. Check right here pal.

http://www.worldofwar.net/cartography/worldmap/easterncont.php

Kalo:
I see that you are right. Alterac is barly closer to Undercity according the the most recent maps... so what's your point?

Inquisistor7:
It is true that Blizzard is unlikely to completly destroy the Humans, but perhaps they can make it weaker like they did to the Horde. Just look at the transformation from the 2nd Horde(Doomhammer) to the 3rd(Thrall). I only see the Night Elves have the most potentia.

Bloodbeard:
Well, there is one point that I must concede, it is that we know nothing about Gilneas, and they ahve been out of combat for a while.
So yeah I replayed TOD(nothing to do in winter) just to make sure, according to your speculation they do look great. They also have naga problems, and border undead land. But other than that I can't find anythin gto prove anything about their status strong nor weak. We don't know what they have been doing since, they COULD HAVE been building their forces, or whatnot. In fact the RPG book gives a hint that Naga might have infiltrated Gilneas(PAGE 97 Lands of Conflict). So either way, they can be strong or weak we don't know.

[Reign of Kalos]

My point being? Just that you aren't quite up on all the details, and that you obviously need to read the main page of some of the fansites more often. It could lead to you loosing out on very important facts that would help you debate better. Try and stay abreast of the current news ok?

[Inquisistor7]

Inquisistor7:
It is true that Blizzard is unlikely to completly destroy the Humans, but perhaps they can make it weaker like they did to the Horde. Just look at the transformation from the 2nd Horde(Doomhammer) to the 3rd(Thrall). I only see the Night Elves have the most potentia.



I would say that the destruction of Lordaeron and its occupation by the Undead is weakening enough.

[rudynoname]

im not sure what fan site mpas you have been looking at but gilenas has never at any time been seperate from the mainland. that we can guarantee without a doubt. and zul'dare is in fact closer to and pretty much believed to be a part of kul tiras, not gilenas.

[kooaznboi1088]

My point being? Just that you aren't quite up on all the details, and that you obviously need to read the main page of some of the fansites more often. It could lead to you loosing out on very important facts that would help you debate better. Try and stay abreast of the current news ok?

I don't understand, you telling me that Alterac is closer(abeit barly) to UC means I have to look at the current fan sites?
BTW I did read the battlegrounds, but I guess I missed the 1 sentence that told me about the frostwolf being there.



rudy:
Well Zul'Dare is listed under Gilneas' settlements, so it must belong to Gilneas.

As for your map questions, I dont have a link but im pretty sure it was.

[rudynoname]

zul'dare was part of kul tiras in war2. did you get this info from the rpgs books?

also gilenas has never been an isle. that is a fact. you might be confusing it with kul tiras.

oh and i have a bunch of maps, old and new, unofficial and official, detialed and not, colored and black and white, etc.... if anyone is confused and wants them i could email them to you. its a nice refrence set even if most are repetitive.

[Reign of Kalos]

I don't understand, you telling me that Alterac is closer(abeit barly) to UC means I have to look at the current fan sites?
BTW I did read the battlegrounds, but I guess I missed the 1 sentence that told me about the frostwolf being there.



rudy:
Well Zul'Dare is listed under Gilneas' settlements, so it must belong to Gilneas.

As for your map questions, I dont have a link but im pretty sure it was.
No, I was just saying that you missed one piece of important information out due to misreading, perhap you ought to consider reading more sources to check that you are using up to date information, and not making any mistakes. That way you don't fall into any holes due to gaps in knowledge.

In terms of a direct line to the Undercity they are about the same, but when you consider most people can't walk across the water...