Soul-Craft

[Cerebral_009]

I was having a discussion with Neph' in yonder thread, and have been thinking alot about it... so I'm putting it up for discussion:

My theory being that -souls- play a huge part in the Warcraft Universe. Although Blizzard don't make huge mention of this, there are many pieces supporting evidence in WC3:

The Soul Gem
Frostmourne
Banshees "displace soul"

But my biggest argument is death in WoW: Although a handy and necessary game mechanism, it adds a hell of a lot of weight to my argument - Spirit healer... hello!
I've never actually played a Priest class, but I'm sure many Priest spells make mention of Souls. Not to mention the Warlocks with their soul stones, and the vital part they play...

So, what do you guys and gals think on the subject of the -soul- in the Warcraft World?

[Diskordjah]

Im thinking souls are real, since Tichondrius tells us he must feast on souls at one point.

[Lord Kil'jaeden]

My opinion is that Blizzard made a mistake with their conception of the soul.

When Arthas lost his soul because of Frostmourne, he betrayed his former mentor teaching and even killed him and desecrated his father ashes.
Then, he said that he felt nothing in front of what he has done, no guilt, just nothing.
At this moment, Blizzard was really coherent with their concept of warcraft soul, no feeling to show the "humanity" (or orcish-ity, eleven-ity etc...) of a character.

Then, when Arthas attacked the elven domain , we clearly understood that he was angry in front of the tactics used by Sylvanas to delay the Scourge march, Arthas even showed that he was frustrated.
But wait a minute, how can he be angry and frustrated when his soul is not there, he should have just felt nothing in front of Sylvanas actions, no anger no frustration.

So , i see only 2 possibilities to that incoherence that popped up there
-Blizzard made a mistake
-It is not Arthas feelings that are exposed there, but the Ner'zhul's ones that are expressed through his puppet.

But as it was said that Arthas was not a puppet controled at distance and had some free will, it is a Blizzard mistake.

[Nephalim]

Before we go any further, it might be wise to define "soul."

Kil, it's not exactly accurate to say that Arthas had no feelings, just that he stopped caring. I think he lost any compassion or empathy.

[Lord Kil'jaeden]

But Arthas continues to care , just not for the same ones .
Observe his reactions when Archimonde entered Azeroth after Kel'thuzad finished the summoning ceremony.

[Nephalim]

Yeah, he's worried about his own hide. Not much empathy or compassion there.

[Romanov77]

Im thinking souls are real, since Tichondrius tells us he must feast on souls at one point.


I swear I saw this IN-GAME too.

RoC, Undead Campaign, Chapter 2.

Tichondrius is near the bottom of the map, in the rear of your base, and there's a short cutscene in which he literally sucks souls from 2 civilians...

[Willow]

There is? I don't remember that...

[Nephalim]

Chapter 2's got precisely one billion secrets in it.

[Grt490]

Yeah, he's worried about his own hide. Not much empathy or compassion there.

If he only cares for himself, why did he tell Kel'Thuzad that he was a good friend when he left for Northrend the second time? I think that blizzard isn't exactly sure what they're souls in game actually are, they just like the word for its value in the world of fantasy settings.

[Willow]

Easy - He wants to keep Kel'Thuzad happy, because he has a large amount of his army under his control.

[Nephalim]

Grt, that's exactly my point. Souls remain more of an abstract concept than an actual thing, which was the position I had before that Cerebral is challenging.

[Inquisistor7]

The soul is a very real thing in Warcraft; as a couple of examples, the altars themselves bind a heroes soul, and we see wraiths and ghosts.

[WarDragon]

If he only cares for himself, why did he tell Kel'Thuzad that he was a good friend when he left for Northrend the second time? I think that blizzard isn't exactly sure what they're souls in game actually are, they just like the word for its value in the world of fantasy settings.
Two possible explanations that I can think of; number one, Ner'Zhul's diminished power enabled a bit of "leakage" from Frostmourne, letting Arthas feel, just a little bit. Number two, he was speaking from an entirely intellectual point of view, despite having forgotten what the word "friend" truly means.

As for the larger discussion, I tend to agree with Cerebral on this matter, for much the same reasons. However, Neph had an excellent point on exactly how the loss of Arthas' soul affected him.

An interesting little tidbit, that may be ignored if you don't accept the RPG books as canon. In Manual of Monsters, the description of Frostmourne states that the wielder's soul is first corrupted to evil, then sucked into the sword. In other words, Arthas' soul was still in control of his body, it was just vastly different from the way it was as a Paladin.

[Cerebral_009]

Two possible explanations that I can think of; number one, Ner'Zhul's diminished power enabled a bit of "leakage" from Frostmourne, letting Arthas feel, just a little bit. Number two, he was speaking from an entirely intellectual point of view, despite having forgotten what the word "friend" truly means.

As for the larger discussion, I tend to agree with Cerebral on this matter, for much the same reasons. However, Neph had an excellent point on exactly how the loss of Arthas' soul affected him.

An interesting little tidbit, that may be ignored if you don't accept the RPG books as canon. In Manual of Monsters, the description of Frostmourne states that the wielder's soul is first corrupted to evil, then sucked into the sword. In other words, Arthas' soul was still in control of his body, it was just vastly different from the way it was as a Paladin.
Excellent point. Arthas hadn't lost his soul, it hadn't slipped off into the Nether, The Emerald Dream or whereer the hell souls go, it was by his side, in an enchanted sword in the true possession of a evil being who is, himself, a soul bound to armour and metal...

[Willow]

first corrupted to evil,

That makes sense, tying in with his Undead title as "Death Knight"

[Nephalim]

My prime issue is that we have yet to define soul, and so has Warcraft. In modern society, soul has several different connotations that make it synonymous with mind, spirit, or even just life. Because if it's all or nothing, then we've got a major problem. If "soul" encompasses memory and personality, which it would, in the case ghosts, wraiths, etc, then Arthas should've become basically a mindless zombie after he picked up Frostmourne.

All I'm saying is that it's never been defined and laid out specifically, whereas say, Mortal Kombat has a very direct approach to the "soul." Warcraft addresses the issue of a soul in the same way that the real world does.

As for Spirit Healers and Altars, I choose to ignore them as game conventions that don't impact lore because if we DO count them as canon lore, then that means that for no particular reason, all over Azeroth hundreds of thousands of people from the 8 races we can choose from were inexplicably impossible to kill, and kept coming back, not as undead but fully resurrected living creatures. And that for no particular reason, no one thought to use altars on Uther when he died, or Cenarius, or Muradin, or Daelin, or Grom, or etc. etc.

So if you ARE going to count Spirit Healers and Altars as canon, then you have to count the consequences of their existence as canon, too.

[Cerebral_009]

That's a very valid point, too. But I think we agreed some time back, that while game mechanics do not 'translate', their essence is open for debate, and are left for the grande imaginations... such as Ysera's wish. Examples of my imagination rationalising game mechanics....

Wisps don't create Ancients... but I like to think that the wisp sacrifices it's self to move through channels of nature magic to assist an ancient from ashenvale to dematerialize and move through the same streams of nature magic to the location of the sacrificed wisp - the birth animation would resemble the Ancient rematerialising. Plausible... I think so.

Altars. Through the power of divine magic, a hero must first 'bind' their soul to an altar, and can then be resurrected -with some penalty- upon a receiving a mortal wound. All those you mentioned were in no position to be binding themselves to an altar. Really the altar is purely for game mechanics, but I can translate an element of the Altar into 'real' terms, too.

Same with spirit healers. Resurrection upon death is possible, but happens rarely... except in game mechanics, where it happens every... well, every ten minutes judging by some of the players i've seen recently!


But you are right in saying that, perhaps, there doesn't need to be a definition.. perhaps Blizz' can't define the soul without creating a new religion... hell, I'm sure there's gotta be more Warcraft devotees than Neo Jedi out there!

[g00d4n0thing]

You pretty much have to disregard Altars. They were only in the game for Battle.net

[WarDragon]

Arthas should've become basically a mindless zombie after he picked up Frostmourne.

Technically, he was! He was just a zombie under the total control of a sentient sword, that happened to be sentient because it contained his soul. In fact, if Arthas' body and Frostmourne had ever been separated by more than one mile, his body would have dropped lifelessly to the ground until the sword (and soul within it) got close enough to control it again.

Matter of fact, I am of the belief that souls are basically the sum total of a being in WarCraft. What makes Liches, and Crypt Lords, and Banshees different from Ghouls and Skeletons? The former still have their souls, and the latter are just reanimated bodies. Soulless undead may have some glimmer of intelligence remaining (such as Frost Wyrms and Crypt Fiends) in their necro-infused brains, but I doubt you could truly call them individuals. Even the lowly Acolytes retain their souls, as evidenced by their ability to become Shades.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Are the spirit and the soul two separate things? Where does one end and the other begin?

I personally think people just like to use the terms interchangably, but in my mind the soul is a sort of essence of sentience and kindness or whatever or perhaps even just a concept rather than an actual thing, meanwhile the spirit is the true container of a person's existance.