Shadows & Light

[Nephalim]

For those of you who didn't know (and even for those of you who did) Shadows and Light, one of the more anticipated volumes in the Warcraft RPG, came out today. It has details on many huge figures in Warcraft lore, statistics on tons of classic heroes and villains, and information on the titans, elemental lords, and other plains of reality.

Anyway, for the curious, the table of contents was posted here (http://forums.white-wolf.com/viewtopic.php?t=5769&sid=2afb4bfc2ccb2ef137689cee039fffa9) on the Arthaus forum by one of the dev team.

[darksideslayer]

Is this a joke, or what? They DO NOT MENTION ILLIDAN IN THE LEGENDS CHAPTER!!!! :y-thumbsd

[Rowan Seven]

Is this a joke, or what? They DO NOT MENTION ILLIDAN IN THE LEGENDS CHAPTER!!!!

Don't worry. Illidan Stormrage is included in the "Manual of Monsters" along with Sylvanas Windrunner, the Lich King, and a host of others. "Manual of Monsters" was released several months ago and can be ordered online or, depending on where you are, possibly bought at a local comic/gaming/hobby store.

[Nephalim]

For completion purposes, here are the other major characters covered in previous ones

Manual of Monsters:
Kael'thas Sunstrider
The Lich King
Kel'Thuzad
Sylvanas Windrunner
Illidan Stormrage
Lady Vashj
Azgalor

Lands of Conflict:
Magni Bronzebeard
Taelan Fordring
Rend Blackhand
Mug'thol
Mathias Shaw
Marcus Jonathan
Edwin VanCleef
Faranell

Lands of Conflict actually has a ton of character profiles, for new characters, mostly.

[Diskordjah]

Rend Blackhand... is there a chance he's at least Fel Orc? =/

[WarDragon]

Oh man, I can't wait to get my claws on this one. I'm practically salivating to see the stats on Jaina, Thrall, and the Aspects (not necessarily in that order, mind you).

[Darktyl]

Oh man, I can't wait to get my claws on this one. I'm practically salivating to see the stats on Jaina, Thrall, and the Aspects (not necessarily in that order, mind you).


Same here. But I especially want to know more about the Aspect, Deathwing being the top of the list.

[Kingcrazygenius]

What the hell dragged you back here?

I'm more curious than annoyed.

[Darktyl]

What the hell dragged you back here?

I'm more curious than annoyed.


and what would be the reason behind for your annoyance??? :y-huh:


And I keep finding myself coming back here..... it's the warcraft addiction in me, it refuse to let me go..... I even bought the new warcraft book by knaak (thought I know he mess up alot on the lore, but I just have to find out. :y-annoyed )

[Diskordjah]

Im... in the euro beta. go me.

[Reign of Kalos]

Im... in the euro beta. go me.
lucky lucky lucky!

[Goddess]

I don't see Arthas anywhere , not in the old one , not in the new one...

[Kingcrazygenius]

Arthas now exists as one with The Lich King, making him, in part, the most powerful being on Azeroth (for the moment)

[Paladin307]

So uhh it has been a couple days...nothing new?

[quetzalcoatl5]

Not really. Anyone out there working on good custom campaigns or fan fics?

Ooo...by the by, does anyone have either a music video with Linkin Parks Points of Authority or Smashing Pumpkins Bullet with Butterfly Wings set to Warcraft cinema footage on their computers? I made those two videos but my computer's harddrive got wiped over the summer and I've been trying to reclaim them.

[darksideslayer]

Got it now, King! You weren´t going anywhere!!! You just are not an ordinary member of the forums, but a moderator!!! Very nice!!! Good luck with your new job!! You´re worth it!!

Anyway, it´s been a while since I´ve played a good custom campaign for TFT... I hope someone´s doing something... I have some nice ideas for custom campaigns, but I´ve never used the WorldEditor before, and I´ve got little time to study some tutorials on map making... So if anyone is making a good custom campaigns, PM me!!!!!! :y-wink3:

[Paladin307]

Legends

Cairne Bloodhoof - CR 22
Muradin Bronzebeard - CR 15
Orgrim Doomhammer - CR 27
Gul'dan - 35
Grom Hellscream - CR 22
Khadgar - CR 22
Krasus - CR 21
Sir Anduin Lothar - CR 25
Medivh, Guardian of Tirisfal - CR 43
Jaina Proudmoore - CR 17
Rhonin - CR 17
Maiev Shadowsong - CR 22
Malfurion Stormrage, Archdruid, Lord of the Night Elves - CR 38
Thrall, Warchief of the Horde - CR 28
Uther the Lightbringer - CR 23
Tyrande Whisperwind, Priestess of Elune - CR 25
Alleria Windrunner - CR 21
Archimonde the Defiler - CR 50
Kil'jaeden the Deceiver - CR 59
Mannoroth the Destructor - CR 45
Tichondrius the Darkener - CR 44

Eternals

Agamaggan - CR 54
Aviana - CR 44
Queen Azshara - CR 52
Cenarius - CR 44
Elune, Goddess of the Moon - CR 93
Malorne - CR 62
Ursoc - CR 52
Ursol - CR 52
Lord Xavius - CR 42
Alexstrasza the life-binder - CR 30
Malygos the Spell-weaver - CR 32
Neltharion the Earth-warder (Deathwing) - CR 34
Nozdormu the Timeless - CR 30
Ysera the Dreamer - cR 32
Al'Akir the Windlord - CR 35
Neptulon the Tidehunter - CR 50
Ragnaros the Firelord - CR 40
Therazane the Stonehmother - CR 45
Aesir (Titan Race) - CR 30
Vanir (Titan Race) - CR 28
Aggramar the Avenger - CR 71
Aman'Thul the High Father - CR 77
Eonar the Lifebinder - CR 70
Golganneth the Thunderer - CR 73
Khaz'goroth the Shaper - CR 65
Norgannon the Dreamweaver - CR 74


I dont agree with some of these damnit some of the people I like are too weak.

[Reign of Kalos]

They're seriously suggesting that Furion is a match for Deathwing? The purple hippy would get his ass handed to him by the earth warder! Evil incarnate is more than a match for his flower power!

[Kingcrazygenius]

Guess the Aspects aren't nearly as tough I thought, if even Gul'dan has a higher challenge level.

Queen Azshara - CR 52

BOOYAH BITCHES! BOOYAH I SAY! Never were stats so sexfulicious!

[Paladin307]

Anyone can beat anyone in Warcraft. A peon has a chance against Elune. Why do you think Grom was able to beat Mannorath? 22vs45? So these numbers shouldnt be used to equate who beats who.

Damnit look how weak the human heroes are...

The Lich King doesnt look so tough now does he! :y-sneaky:

[WarDragon]

Where the hell do they get off putting the Aspects in low friggin' thirties?! They oughta be mid-fifties, minimum. I'm not even going to into Alexstrasza being the weakest of them. Medivh's too weak, Jaina is FAR too weak, Azshara's too high (a mutant fish girl being more powerful than both Archimonde the Defiler, and the Lord of the Dead? Come on!), and the Elemental Lords should have been roughly equal to each other, instead of all over the place. Other than that, everyone's about where I'd have thought, relative to each other.

[Kingcrazygenius]

(a mutant fish girl being more powerful than...the Lord of the Dead? Come on!)

Some corpsy prick being more powerful than the undisputed mortal master of warlock magic/mutant extraordinare? Get real. Azshara's been gaining power for ten thousand years now, what did you honestly expect?

I was expecting the Aspects to be stronger than Cenarius, but their being weaker does give another reason why they didn't show up to help out. I was also a bit surprised at Jaina's low challenge level, but then again she is only twenty something, and she doesn't even get into the really powerful evil magic.

I wonder where Aegwynn would fit in this scheme, at her prime of course.

King Crazy Genius - CR 473

[Paladin307]

I think they made a mistake trying to classify the power levels of the upper beings in Warcraft.

How the hell is Khadghar 22? He should at least equal Guldan since he had a better teacher. Medihv so weak....

These numbers are killing me; best just to ignore them.

[Kingcrazygenius]

For all intents and purposes I agree that many of the eternals are sorely skewed. However I have no problem believing that Azshara is more powerful than the Lich King.

And while Khadgar was taught some ordinary arcane magic by Medivh, Gul'dan was taught warlock magic by Kil'jaeden. From what I have seen warlock magic bests all other forms when it comes to sheer destructive power.

Maybe we simply put too much faith in the power of eternals. Granted the Aspects and whatnot were given power by the Titans themselves and have mucho control over their particular area, but how much of that actually translates into combative power? Mortal races seem to have a knack for getting really powerful. Still, I didn't expect them to be weaker than Cenarius.

[Rowan Seven]

Concerning challenge ratings, I asked about them over on the WarcraftRPG forums and was told that, for PCs and NPCs, CRs aren't always all that accurate. In light of that, I wouldn't suggest using the CR ratings as a guide to who could beat who in the Warcraft universe.

If any of you want to read the discussion and learn about challenge ratings, the thread can be found here:
Understanding CR: What is it and how does it work? (http://forums.white-wolf.com/viewtopic.php?t=6668&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)

They're seriously suggesting that Furion is a match for Deathwing? The purple hippy would get his ass handed to him by the earth warder! Evil incarnate is more than a match for his flower power!

Malfurion Stormrage, Archdruid, Lord of the Night Elves: hp 367.

Neltharion the Earth-Warder (Deathwing): 1,760 hp.

...unless I'm misunderstanding the stats, which is entirely possible.

[Kingcrazygenius]

I also suspected there were other stats to consider aside from challenge ratings...

[Rowan Seven]

Quote:
Queen Azshara - CR 52


BOOYAH BITCHES! BOOYAH I SAY! Never were stats so sexfulicious!

Sorry to disappoint you Kingcrazygenius, but "Manual of Monsters" had quite a few stat errors in it that not even the Lich King was immune from. Taelohn, with, if I remember correctly, information provided by Bob Fitch who's the one who statted the Lich King and help from members of the RPG forum went and 'fixed' the Lord of the Undead Scourge. The corrected Lich King has a CR of at least 52 if you count only class levels and possibly as high as 58 if you factor in the Lich template and quasi-deity traits.

Then again, it's possible that Queen Azshara's CR needs to be amended as well. Additionally, unlike the Lich King, Queen Azshara has the Eternal template which makes it _incredibly_ difficult for her to be truly destroyed.

I also suspected there were other stats to consider aside from challenge ratings...

Yes, well, if I understand what I read over at the RPG forum, challenge ratings for NPCs are traditionally decided by adding together class levels plus whatever additional adjustments there might be. This isn't necessarily all that accurate because two characters with the same class levels can have different stats, different classes work differently together than other class combinations, and some creatures (such as dragons) typically don't have class levels, which might explain why the Aspects have CRs in the low thirties while Malfurion Stormrage has a CR of 38.

[Kingcrazygenius]

So the Dragons have a lv 30 something class levels added on to their already big dragon level...

You dracophiliacs happy now?

[WarDragon]

Actually, I saw the book. The Aspects have no class levels at all, only hit dice in the neighborhood of 50 or so. Monster HD are generally considered less powerful than class levels, but I believe Dragon and Outsider HD come fairly close...

[twisted orc]

Anyone can beat anyone in Warcraft. A peon has a chance against Elune. Why do you think Grom was able to beat Mannorath? 22vs45? So these numbers shouldnt be used to equate who beats who.
:

mayb a superb critical strike?
---------------lol------------

[darksideslayer]

mayb a superb critical strike?
---------------lol------------

Ahh, c´mon!!!! CR in d20 fails when it comes to 1v1... I say it because a play d20 since 2000. CR stans for the dificulty class for a group with a minimum of 4 MEMBERS to beat anything that has that CR, using 25% of their resources, including hit points, magic, items with charges, and so on. So a monster with a CR of 13 is a challenge for a group of 4 characters in level 13. So this means you can´t rely very much on CR to define who can beat who in both d20, Warcraft, or whatever.

[Paladin307]

Sigh, one of the best pieces of lore out there and we have little to no information on it...

[WarDragon]

Here's an interesting little tidbit; the secrets behind the mighty Infernals are revealed! A group of demons known as Tothrezim, related to the Nathrezim, serve the Legion as craftsmen and labourers; they also sell their services to anyone who can pay for them. They have a unique link to the Twisting Nether that lets them channel its Fel energies directly into magical constructs, which accounts for both the Infernals' raw power, and why they break down after a short time on the material plane.

[Kingcrazygenius]

I have to wonder just what kind of price one would have to pay to aquire the services of a Tothrezim. I somehow doubt gold is their prefered method of payment.

[Grt490]

It more likely than not is your soul. Demons always have a creative use for souls.

[WarDragon]

Actually, they do demand gold. Massive quantities of it, on a per-summon basis. Greedy little suckers, they are.

[Paladin307]

Maybe the Tothrezim are really psyclons and are be led by john travolta. :y-idea:

[Rowan Seven]

Well, here's some lore, divided by sections, from "Shadows & Light".

Legends:

Muradin apparently visisted Northrend often and, on one trip, realized there was an ominous, growing power present. He notified King Terenas of his discovery, and the king asked him to remain in Northrend to collect intelligence on this potential threat. He and his party were soon attacked by the Scourge and forced to hole up in their camp for several weeks until Prince Arthas arrived.

In "The Last Guardian", when Khadgar battled Medivh, he was magically aged from a youth to a middle-aged man.

Maiev was around but very young during the War of the Ancients. As a consequence of the war, she came to view arcane magic as a horrible, disgusting power and demanded that Malfurion appoint her as Illidan's watcher. She was "shocked" by Illidan's creation of a second Well of Eternity and wanted to guarantee that he wouldn't cause any more "evil". "Shadows & Light" also states quite unequivocally that Maiev died in Outland, "her soul empty of all but rage," (S&L, pg 51).

Tyrande's tiger's name is Ash'alah.

Eternals:

Agamaggan was a giant boar who, possessing a voracious appetite, fed on trolls. Cenarius convinced him that the Burning Legion posed a threat to all life, but, being impatient, he charged the Burning Legion, tore through over one thousand Doomguard, and was eventually slain in single combat against Mannoroth. The quilboar revere him as a god and believe that wherever his blood fell the mineral "bloodstone" was produced.

Aviana was at one point in time a "normal" raven. However, Elune chose her to be her messenger to Cenarius, and she eventually became the messenger of many ancient powers, each one giving her special abilities until she was an equal among them. Disguised as a night elf, she studied their magic prior to the War of the Ancients but came to recognize the corrupting influence of the arcane and returned to the side of Elune.

Queen Azshara is currently a twenty-foot tall naga with tentacles in place of fins. She has also become a magic "battery" of sorts, her body practically overloading with magic.

Night elf druids tell stories about the possibility of Cenarius being reborn someday.

Malorne the Waywatcher was Elune's companion and Cenarius' father. He fell during the War of the Ancients.

Ursoc and Ursol, the twin bears, also died during the War of the Ancients. Unlike many of their fellow Ancients, they appeared to the Kaldorei fairly often and were quite friendly. They also studied mortal professions, with Ursoc becoming a brewer and Ursol carving statues out of wood. The furbolg are now their most dedicated followers.

Malygos has regained some of his sanity and is currently working to rebuild his dragonflight.

Ragnaros, weakened from his summoning to Azeroth, desires to return to the Elemental Plane and "ravage the world around him," (S&L, pg. 104).

Therazane the Stonemother is the "most peaceful of the Elemental Lords" and "is a patient, loving, motherly type who encourages growing things and loves simply to spend long periods of time relaxing with those creatures that make their homes upon her," (S&L, pg. 106).

In addition to Uldaman and Uldum (under the Tanaris Desert), there is another titan ruin known as Ulduar below Northrend's Storm Peaks.

There appear to be at least two types of titans: Aesir who possess greater agility and are smarter and stronger, and Vanir who are tougher but not as powerful. Aesir have platinum-colored skin while Vanir have bronze-colored skin. Sargeras (a Vanir) is the brother of Aman'Thul the High Father (an Aesir) who rules the Titan Pantheon. Aman'Thul's consort is Eonar the Lifebinder (a Vanir), and his son is Golganneth the Thunderer (an Aesir) who created the Sea Giants. Khaz'goroth the Shaper (a Vanir) created the dwarves, troggs, and (possibly) Mountain Giants with help from Eonar. Khaz Modan means "mountains of Khaz," (S&L, pg. 119). Norgannon the Dreamweaver (an Aesir) was commanded by Aman'Thul to catalogue arcane magic and is now a "lord of mysteries and master of arcane magic," (S&L, pg. 120). Aggramar the Avenger (a Vanir) was Sargeras's lieutenant and became his replacement. He wields the blade Taeshalach (which means "Flame Rend"). Taeshalach is half of the semi-sentient weapon Gorshalach ("Dark Render"). Gorshalach was once carried by Sargeras but split itself in two when the titan switched sides. Sargeras possesses the second half, known as Gorribal ("Dark Seether").

Cosmology:

While he was at Nethergarde, Khadgar wrote "Contemplations on Many Worlds". In it, he suggested a cosmology with the Elemental Plane as the base. Above are the material worlds such as Azeroth and Draenor which are separated and connected by the Twisting Nether. Scholars later added the Emerald Dream as a realm that overlays Azeroth, and the Great Dark Beyond surrounds the Twisting Nether as the indefinable end of the cosmos. How accurate this depiction of the cosmos is remains to be seen.

The Elemental Plane was created by the Titans as a prison and is a realm of three tiers. Air is on the top, with Earth and Water co-existing in the middle layer. Fire is on the bottom. The domains of the Elemental Lords are called the Skywall (Air), Deephome (Earth), the Firelands (Fire), and the Abyssal Maw (Water). Elementals dominate, but there are other lifeforms. However, none of these other creatures are reputedly highly intelligent.

Ysera and the Green Dragonflight make their home in the Eye of Ysera in the Emerald Dream. The Eye of Ysera is a valley filled with great golden domes where the dragons live and, unlike the rest of the Emerald Dream, its corresponding region in Azeroth (if it even has one) is impossible to discern. Not all is peaceful in the Emerald Dream, though. The Nightmare, a constantly moving "storm"/zone, twists and corrupts many of the creatures and plants it passes through and seems to be growing in size.

There are a few rare, verdant places in Outland where the lushness of Draenor's past still exists. They're known as Green Havens, and apparently druids from Azeroth are responsible for their creation.

Nether Dragons feed on magic but are unallied with the Burning Legion. They are creatures of chaos and are composed of pure nether energy, (S&L, pg. 158). They are also intelligent and can communicate telepathically.

Appendix:

The Discs of Norgannon, uncovered by dwarven excavators in Uldaman, have the universe's secrets written on them in the titan language. Norgannon the Dreamweaver apparently lost them, but he and the Pantheon might take steps to relocate and recover them.

[WarDragon]

Sorry to resurrect a dying thread, but it seemed preferable to creating a new one. After a Christmas-cash windfall, I am now the proud owner of all the currently released WarCraft RPG books, sans only the Alliance and Horde Compendium, and Lands of Conflict. Yay! :bigclap:

[Kingcrazygenius]

In "The Last Guardian", when Khadgar battled Medivh, he was magically aged from a youth to a middle-aged man.

Never thought about it before now, but that does make sense.

Agamaggan was a giant boar who, possessing a voracious appetite, fed on trolls. Cenarius convinced him that the Burning Legion posed a threat to all life, but, being impatient, he charged the Burning Legion, tore through over one thousand Doomguard, and was eventually slain in single combat against Mannoroth. The quilboar revere him as a god and believe that wherever his blood fell the mineral "bloodstone" was produced.

Why do the good die young?

Queen Azshara is currently a twenty-foot tall naga with tentacles in place of fins. She has also become a magic "battery" of sorts, her body practically overloading with magic.

So Azshara to Vashj is like Ursula to Ariel (Disney's The Little Mermaid), except Azshara has infinate sexfuliciousness.

Night elf druids tell stories about the possibility of Cenarius being reborn someday.

"You cannot defeat me! I am the heart of the land!"

It stands to reason that a deity of nature could grow back.

Malygos has regained some of his sanity and is currently working to rebuild his dragonflight

Easily my favorite Aspect. Magic itself coupled with madness equates to pure awesome.

There appear to be at least two types of titans: Aesir who possess greater agility and are smarter and stronger, and Vanir who are tougher but not as powerful. Aesir have platinum-colored skin while Vanir have bronze-colored skin. Sargeras (a Vanir)

So for all his power he is not even one of the mightiest. Haha, loser.

[WarDragon]

But Sargeras isn't just any ordinary Vanir. I'd say he's easily a match for a standard Aesir, and any of the Pantheon except Aman-thul or Norgannon.

[Kingcrazygenius]

I'd kick his ass. Stupid titans.

[Diskordjah]

ah! thats norse mythology those names! the norse gods clashed (asar) and eventually conquered another race of gods called vaner. they became chums afterwards though, Freya is a vaner.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Yeup. Alot of things come from other mythologies, just like how the Titans were the first generation of gods in Greek Mythology.

[Darktyl]

Sageras might have been the Loki of WoW.
Especially since Loki is a Vaner, at least partly.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Sargaras was a pure-hearted Titan who was driven to insanity by eons of demonic combat. Loki was a bad seed from the start.

[Darktyl]

But the idea might have sprung from Loki, :D

[Kingcrazygenius]

I fail to see any sort of corolation between the two figures, so that most likely is not the case.

[Rowan Seven]

After a Christmas-cash windfall, I am now the proud owner of all the currently released WarCraft RPG books, sans only the Alliance and Horde Compendium, and Lands of Conflict. Yay!

Congratulations. I highly recommend "Lands of Conflict" and wish I'd brought it back home with me during winter break for help playing "World of Warcraft". You might want to hold off on buying the "Alliance & Horde Compendium" though. There's a second edition of the Warcraft RPG corebook slated to be released in April 2005. Called "World of Warcraft the Roleplaying Game", it's supposed to feature updated and revised content to better correspond with "World of Warcraft". Apparently the Forsaken are included as a playable race now instead of a template, and I imagine it will incorporate a lot of information from the "Alliance & Horde Compendium".

For more information, check out this thread:
Big news about the second edition! (http://forums.white-wolf.com/viewtopic.php?t=6523&sid=d0e50060142fdca5a0e4542cf4c9a70f)

The new book is also listed on Amazon.com

[WarDragon]

Would you believe I saw that thread just minutes before seeing your reply, Rowan? I'm not really sure about the Second Edition thing; the D&D rules work well enough for me. Of the two I missed, I'd actually choose A&H Comp. over LoC...

[Diskordjah]

Loki was a giant, not one of the vanes.

[Darktyl]

I thought Loki was a half vanir/aesir.

[Rowan Seven]

Of the two I missed, I'd actually choose A&H Comp. over LoC...

To each their own, I guess. I buy the Warcraft RPG books mostly for the lore and only possess a vague knowledge of the D&D system. Consequently, the "Alliance & Horde Compendium" was, to me, a small section that probably needed editing of interesting lore followed by a larger section of mass combat rules that didn't interest me much. "Lands of Conflict", however, was page upon page of interesting, general lore.

[Inquisistor7]

Out of curiosity, how much do these rpg books cost? I play D&D, but I haven't gotten the warcraft version because my friends aren't really into Warcraft. I am a little surprised that someone would buy such a book just for the lore since that is only part of the book's purpose , but it makes little diference in the end.

[WarDragon]

They're about 25-35 bucks a pop (American). Also, my reasoning for getting A&H first; I like to call it Stuff That Should Have Been In The Basic Book but Was Left Out To Get More Cash!

[Rowan Seven]

I am a little surprised that someone would buy such a book just for the lore since that is only part of the book's purpose

It's one of the costs of being a Warcraft fanatic. To be honest, I'm amazed that I've been able to resist buying the Warcraft Board Game. :g laugh:

Anyway, for those who are interested in the Warcraft RPG series but don't want to pay the full price for the books and don't mind PDF, DriveThruRPG is selling them (with the exception of "Manual of Monsters") at discounted prices.

DriveThruRPG Warcraft RPG (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=warcraft&x=0&y=0&search_in_description=1)

Also, my reasoning for getting A&H first; I like to call it Stuff That Should Have Been In The Basic Book but Was Left Out To Get More Cash!

Hopefully the second edition of the corebook will resolve that issue. Apparently there were some complications with the first few books in the line, but those difficulties appear to have been resolved to some extent, and I have high expectations for future installments.

[Nephalim]

It's one of the costs of being a Warcraft fanatic. To be honest, I'm amazed that I've been able to resist buying the Warcraft Board Game. :g laugh: I only buy extra-cirricular stuff if I'm confident there's lore details within. The board game, I am told, offers no such details.

[rudynoname]

yea i couldnt afford to bu every piece of warcraft merchandice. things like gameboards, action figures, and startegy guides usualy offer no useful information. though ill check them in the store just to be sure. most guides have the same story in the manual and other merchandice usualy has a 1 paragraph explaination of how it fits in and its info thats usualy obvious and basic to anyone who knows the lore.

[kooaznboi1088]

Yeah, all of the RPG books are worth getting except Magic and Mayhem, which doesn't provide much lore other than the Magic addiction things that come to a mage.

[WarDragon]

Yeah, all of the RPG books are worth getting except Magic and Mayhem, which doesn't provide much lore other than the Magic addiction things that come to a mage.
Unless you plan to actually play the game. In which case, it's just chock full of good stuff!

[Cerebral_009]

For all intents and purposes I agree that many of the eternals are sorely skewed. However I have no problem believing that Azshara is more powerful than the Lich King.

And while Khadgar was taught some ordinary arcane magic by Medivh, Gul'dan was taught warlock magic by Kil'jaeden. From what I have seen warlock magic bests all other forms when it comes to sheer destructive power.

Maybe we simply put too much faith in the power of eternals. Granted the Aspects and whatnot were given power by the Titans themselves and have mucho control over their particular area, but how much of that actually translates into combative power? Mortal races seem to have a knack for getting really powerful. Still, I didn't expect them to be weaker than Cenarius.
Yeah, I'm quite sure that Azshara is gonna be the new Uber bad guy. ANd I have no problem see her as more powerful than an Icy prick with a split personality, even if he is infused with demonic magic, arcane magic and the powers of the dead.

I think it'll go down one of two ways:

1/ Azshara simply launches similtaneous invasions on every shore of every land and takes her fat self to Teldrassil to personally barbeque Furion and Tyrande. (While the Lich King sits back and waits to use all the lovely corpses to wage his war agaist her afterwards)

2/ The old gods, perhaps set free with the help of Kil'Jaden, are released and start unleasing elemental fury all over the place. To which Aszhara responds by royally whopping them back tothe elemental plane and prooving herself as powerful as the titans - only to be backstabbed by Kil'jaden who'll take the oppertunity to something else 'invasiony'.

There are infinite other possibilities, but they seem likely to me. I can take or leave Kil'jadens involvement... he may be playing a much longer game.

Are the Naga and Azshara truly loyal to the Legion, or are the demons just a convienient source of power that the Naga placate for their own purposes?

[Kingcrazygenius]

In her current state I doubt Azshara has any real loyalties towards the demons. I forget who, but someone said she was a something of a magical battery, what with practically overloading on the stuff. Her very presence is probably enough to sustain the Naga population's own power and magic addiction.

I doubt Kil'jaeden would release the Old Gods or even plan to do so. Like Archimonde he probably desires to consume all the power of Azeroth, and releasing a slew of powerful entities would not help much, unless he has a means to get rid of them all as soon as they outlived their usefulness to him.

[WarDragon]

Yeah, I'm quite sure that Azshara is gonna be the new Uber bad guy. ANd I have no problem see her as more powerful than an Icy prick with a split personality, even if he is infused with demonic magic, arcane magic and the powers of the dead.


While I agree that Azshara could very well be a major player in whatever happens next, I have to disagree with your belief in her apparent power level. Should she and the Lich King come to blows, I think she would get the worst of it; if nothing else, Frostmourne would tip the scales.

1/ Azshara simply launches similtaneous invasions on every shore of every land and takes her fat self to Teldrassil to personally barbeque Furion and Tyrande. (While the Lich King sits back and waits to use all the lovely corpses to wage his war agaist her afterwards)

Now this, I like! It fits with everything we've seen so far, and makes for a lovely way to get all the important factions involved.

2/ The old gods, perhaps set free with the help of Kil'Jaden, are released and start unleasing elemental fury all over the place. To which Aszhara responds by royally whopping them back tothe elemental plane and prooving herself as powerful as the titans - only to be backstabbed by Kil'jaden who'll take the oppertunity to something else 'invasiony'.


No offense, but I can't help but recall that one time you admitted to being stoned. Even if Azshara is a match for the Lich King and/or Elemental Lords, she is nowhere near the level of a true god like the Old Gods or Titans. They are primal, cosmic forces of chaos and creation (respectively), she's... Illidan writ large. A magic junkie who OD'ed and mutated. She may even be tapped into the Maelstrom itself, with the remnants of the original Well's power, but Kil'Jaedan's got the entire Twisting Nether at his disposal. In this scenario, tentacle-girl winds up as calamari.

In her current state I doubt Azshara has any real loyalties towards the demons. I forget who, but someone said she was a something of a magical battery, what with practically overloading on the stuff. Her very presence is probably enough to sustain the Naga population's own power and magic addiction.

I doubt Kil'jaeden would release the Old Gods or even plan to do so. Like Archimonde he probably desires to consume all the power of Azeroth, and releasing a slew of powerful entities would not help much, unless he has a means to get rid of them all as soon as they outlived their usefulness to him.
No arguements, mostly because I agree.

[rudynoname]

also agreed.

[Kingcrazygenius]

There is no denying the sexy power of a Naga. Though given Blizzard's habits it is only a matter of time before either she or Vashj tail flicks the bucket.

[Darktyl]

What is "eternal" mean anyway?

Are they those who were immortal to begin with like the titans and old gods?
Is it merely any sentience immortal or had become immortal entity?

If it's the former, then all the titans, demons, old gods + minions and demi gods are all consider eternal.

If it the later, then even the forsaken can be call eternal.

[Kingcrazygenius]

All the important Warcraft entities were divided into two groups; Legends and Eternals. As well as typically being more powerful, Eternals are extremely difficult to permanently kill compared to legends.

And yes, the aspects, titans, Cenarius and his relations, and so on and so forth are Eternals.

[Darktyl]

So, are the more recent figures such as Lichking and Kel'thuzad consider eternal?

The entities you mentions above were born or atleast started out that way. The Lich King and his lieutenants were once mortal.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Neither the Lich King nor Kel'thuzad are listed as Eternals.

[Darktyl]

Hmm, in that case I wonder why is Azshara (sp?) consider more less powerful than the Lich King by many of you, and yet she was listed as an eternal. The NE befor the sundering wasn't immortal either (or so I have alway thought).

[Kingcrazygenius]

Ask Blizzard, because I really don't know. Guess she is some kind of magical sub-deity now.

[Nephalim]

"Eternal" is just a template. If you don't meet the criterea for an eternal, then you're not one. One of these criterea is immortality, and you must be an outsider. Being undead violates these two rules. There are probably others, but I don't know RPGs well enough. Simply being an eternal doesn't automatically make you unbeatable. You probably are, but it's not a given.

[Kingcrazygenius]

And what, praytell, the hell is an outsider?

[Rowan Seven]

Simply being an eternal doesn't automatically make you unbeatable. You probably are, but it's not a given.

Considering that Agamaggan, Malorne, Ursoc, and Ursol (and possibly Lord Xavius) allegedly died during the War of the Ancients and Cenarius' death at the hands of the Warsong Clan despite all of them being Ancients and eternals, I'd agree that the eternal template does not make one unbeatable. It does, however, make one _much_ harder to destroy, and even then, as an eternal, the chances of a successful resurrection or reincarnation sometime in the future are probably much greater than they might be otherwise.

Even if Azshara is a match for the Lich King and/or Elemental Lords, she is nowhere near the level of a true god like the Old Gods or Titans.

Queen Azshara, if I'm reading her stats correctly, is more powerful than a 'regular' titan, but the members of the Titan Pantheon definitely outclass her if you go by "Shadows & Light". As for the Old Gods, their true power remains a mystery to me, and even if they are less 'powerful' than the Titan Pantheon (as seems to be the case) they might have special abilities like Nozdormu the Timeless that could tip the direction of battle in - if not their victory - at least their survival.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Queen Azshara, if I'm reading her stats correctly, is more powerful than a 'regular' titan

I definately picked the right side when I chose to be pro-naga.

[WarDragon]

Queen Azshara, if I'm reading her stats correctly, is more powerful than a 'regular' titan, but the members of the Titan Pantheon definitely outclass her if you go by "Shadows & Light".

Sorry; I have a bad habit of using "Titans" and "Pantheon" interchangeably.

"Eternal" is just a template. If you don't meet the criterea for an eternal, then you're not one. One of these criterea is immortality, and you must be an outsider. Being undead violates these two rules. There are probably others, but I don't know RPGs well enough. Simply being an eternal doesn't automatically make you unbeatable. You probably are, but it's not a given.
Sorry Neph; the template doesn't require immortality, it grants immortality. According to S&L, "any dragon, elemental, fey, humanoid, monstrous humanoid, outsider or undead" is eligible to become an Eternal (you may be thinking of the part where any creature that gains the template becomes an Outsider if it wasn't already). In fact, I recall hearing that when they re-release the books in updated form, the Lich King will indeed have the Eternal template.

And what, praytell, the hell is an outsider?
Demons, angels, that sort of thing. Basically anything from another plane of existance that's not an Elemental, or embodies a concept as opposed to being a purely a flesh-thing. Demons are the embodiment of evil and chaos, Nozdormu is the emodiment of time, the Pantheon are embodiments of order, etc.

[Kingcrazygenius]

So what does that make Azshara?

[Diskordjah]

the "embodiment of sexfuliciusnes - with a vengeance" of course.

[Kingcrazygenius]

the "embodiment of sexfuliciusnes - with a vengeance" of course.

Your words are wise and/or true. When my wrath manifests into global catastrophe your death will be quick and/or painless.