War of the Ancients: The Demon Soul

[Nephalim]

I notice that no one had posted anything on it, and was wondering if I missed the discussion? If not, then post your thoughts.

[Kingcrazygenius]

I don't think there was one yet. Discuss away. I don't intend to read it, but I want to know all the important events.

[Diskordjah]

DISKO'S SEAL OF SPOILERS: beyond this point, there is no need for posting spoiler warnings.


as I understand it, they make the first satyr now? revive som highborne dude called... what? Xavius or something?

[KrewL RaiN]

I read it and I though it was goood. I think the only thing I can point out right now is the introduction of the demi god Aviana who lives in a huge tree full of birds of all kinds. She can turn into a big hawk and in human form shes in a while gown with hair of white feathers if I recall, and the first Satyr was created by Sargaras and the Satyr was one who was killed by MAlfurrion who had the black magic eyes (cant recall his name, starts with and X). Also in this book is when Deathwing creates the demon soul and uses its power to kill a horde of demons, then goes mad and delcares domenance upon all the dragons and all life. Err I cant spell his name but the blue dragon flight tryed to stop him but Deathwing easily destroyes them all and sends the dragon who I cant spell his name flying. And the ending is when Illiden betrays his allies and joins the Queen and the demons side. There is even an event were Dredlords revive fallen night elfs in a destroyed town, this being tied with the beginings of the scorge as said by the main characters

I may have missed some things and the names like the name of teh massive tree Aviana lives in

[Nephalim]

Well, I'm sure most of you won't be surprised, but I hated it. New lore was cool in parts. There's a confusing hint that Ysera is Cenarius' mother, but then they talk about it like she's Alexstrasza, so I'm not sure exactly what the message was there.

Aviana is in it, though I half expected her to be forgotten, and she's horribly characterized. At first Knaak tries to give her a very quick, sharp, and fragmented personality - she talks and moves the way you'd expect a sparrow or chickadee to - but she keeps on shifting from that to very fluid, graceful behaviour like his descriptions of Ysera. If he had gone with one and stuck with it, I would've been much more pleased with her. And he just ignored the "Raven Lady" connotation, as everything about her is white. Her tree is called G'hanir. If we meet Ursin and Ursol and they finish each other's sentences, I think I might just give up RIGHT there.

Turns out satyrs aren't the result of years of corruption, but it's a one shot deal. Night elves are transformed, on the spot, into satyrs, which means that satyrs were working with Azshara and the other high-borne during the war. Xavius, the queen's advisor, who evaporated in the first book, comes back as the first satyr, and another guy named Peroth'arn is next in line.

Shandris debuts in this book as a small child orphaned in the attack, and Tyrande takes special care of her.

Mannoroth is ridiculous. I don't think Knaak even saw that movie. He STUTTERS. I don't even think it's physically possible for him to stutter. I mean, he's stressing that he's afraid of Sargeras but it's just stupid, they reduce him to a nervous wreck, and I just can't see Mannoroth acting like that.

King, you'll be disappointed to know that Azshara barely makes an appearance, once again she looks like she's barely aware of what's going on. She's a total slut, and her main priority is to become Sargeras' bride. This novel has caused me to lose a LOT of respect for her. In the backstory from Warcraft III and the Frozen Throne, I had this image of a malevolent, calculating, incredibly powerful supervillain. But she has yet to cast a single spell, and she's content to let all the men around her make her decisions for her.

All in all, Knaak once again bumbles through lore he doesn't know enough about. He talks about the moon all the time, and never mentions the second moon. The night elves compare humans to dwarves even though dwarves won't ever be seen for another 7500 years. And he continues to refer to Tyrande, Illidan and Furion as just getting past childhood even though they're 300 and 500 years old. And of course time travel's making a mess of everything. Apparently, change to the timeline IS possible, but so far the only change has been one that we wouldn't have noticed anyway. A demonlord who was apparently killed in Reign of Chaos was killed, this time, in the War of the Ancients. But the first we ever saw of him was in War of the Ancients anyway, so then that begs the question: will the changes to the timeline result in the Warcraft WE experienced? and did Rhonin and Krasus experience something different?

[xShadowleavesx]

They definatley don't change much of the current Azeroth, as they travel sometime between the events of RoC and WoW, so any change would be evident in WoW.

As to the Tyrande, Furion, and Illidan...well, we really don't know how quickly Night Elves matured before the Sundering, so i don't see a big problem.

[Diskordjah]

though didnt we know about the one shot thingamajig about turning nelfs into satyrs? as I recall its said so in the manual of monsters, something about satyrs hunt nightelves to twist using corrupted moonwells...

[Nephalim]

As to the Tyrande, Furion, and Illidan...well, we really don't know how quickly Night Elves matured before the Sundering, so i don't see a big problem.Physically, sure, that's fine, but these people are hundreds of years old and they're still stupid and juvenile. That HAS to account for something. I don't even like Illidan to begin with and I'm pissed off at how stupid he is in this novel.

Originally, this is how it went:
Illidan is a sorcerer by trade, but when Furion senses the corruption of the high-borne, he convinces Illidan to forsake magic and they form the resistance together.
The Stormrages love Tyrande deeply, but she only feels true love for Furion. Illidan is pissed off, natch, but he's more concerned with being unable to practice magic.
Tyrande helps Illidan work through his addiction to magic.
The three find Cenarius, and Cenarius contacts Alexstrasza, and the War of the Ancients begins.
Furion discovers that the portal Azshara means to use to usher Sargeras into Azeroth with is through the Well itself, and resolves to destroy it.
Illidan, driven mad by his addiction and unable to bear the thought of never being able to use magic again, abandons the resistance and goes to warn Azshara.

However, Knaak changes it so that Illidan's a stupid little child:
Magic addiction is never addressed. Indeed, most of the resistance is supported by sorcerers.
With this ENTIRE story arc gone, Illidan's only concern becomes Tyrande. Also, the portal isn't actually IN the Well anymore.
On a side note, they have yet to actually convene with Cenarius, and now it's Krasus who's rallying the dragons.
Illidan thinks that Tyrande is impressed with Furion's nature-powers, and thinks that the demons have more powerful magics (at some mental prodding from Xavius) and so THAT's why he leaves to join Azshara, because he thinks it will impress Tyrande.
The Ancients have yet to join the war that was named for them.

I think purely the fact that magic addiction has been completely removed from this universe undermines some very core ideas to the Warcraft mythos.

Diskord - Maybe so, I don't have the RPGs with me right now. I worded that improperly, though, I wasn't objecting to Knaak's satyr process. It clarified something previously inarticulated.

[Kingcrazygenius]

King, you'll be disappointed to know that Azshara barely makes an appearance, once again she looks like she's barely aware of what's going on. She's a total slut, and her main priority is to become Sargeras' bride. This novel has caused me to lose a LOT of respect for her. In the backstory from Warcraft III and the Frozen Throne, I had this image of a malevolent, calculating, incredibly powerful supervillain. But she has yet to cast a single spell, and she's content to let all the men around her make her decisions for her.

You will join me in Knaak's murder, dismemberment, and spiritual enslavement.

Either way I can and will simply ignore this utter bull****, because everyone with half a brain will realize that this is not the way the people were. I will take it all as a point of view; an incorrect one.

[pbot]

I've said it before and I'll say it again! Jeff Gruub or bust!

[Reign of Kalos]

Jeff Gruub or bust!
Either one is far more preferable to the trash that Knaak writes...

Down with the heretic! Drown him in a sea of true lore! Destroy his empty headed moron mind! He will not defile the characters futher, not if I'm still around!

[Kingcrazygenius]

I was also fond of Christie Golden, writer of Lord of the Clans.

And Alleria could kick Vereesa's ass any time.

[Nephalim]

I've said it before and I'll say it again! Jeff Gruub or bust!Now, I certainly give him some very well-earned credit for the Last Guardian, but I by no means forget Liberty's Crusade, that travesty of a Starcraft novel.

I think Knaak does all right when he's on the right kind of leash. Day of the Dragon, was, I think, just fine. But then, he was dealing with characters he was creating. Aside from Alextrasza and Deathwing, both of whom had never before been even remotely characterized, all of his main characters were original. The MOMENT he tries to touch someone else's stuff, however, he fumbles, and badly. If you've read Legacy of Blood, you'll probably agree that Drognan is not acting at all like the guy you meet in Lut Gholein. But it was forgivable there, i think, because Drognan was such a sidebar. In the Well of Eternity, however, he's taking extremely well-established characters and doing what he likes with them. It's even more noticeable since Rhonin and Krasus are stuck in the mix, along with the virtual non-entity Brox, because they're becoming the most important figures in a story populated by figures much more important than them, which makes the entire novel 350 pages of Knaak masturbating.

Grubb, I find, has a similar dilemma - he also likes elevating the characters he creates to levels they don't deserve. Liberty's Crusade was basically Rebel Yell Redux, but the title character, Liberty, was far too involved in the action, and Grubb changed existing dialogue to force Liberty into the story, which SHOULD be utterly taboo.

However, I do think that Grubb has a knack for understanding other peoples' creations. Even in Liberty's Crusade, Duke, Kerrigan, Raynor and Mengsk were flawlessly imitated, and then in the Last Guardian, which held no original characters, all the characters were similarly well-done. Even though he did something I consider criminal, it did tell me something: Grubb PLAYED the game, if not before, than as research for the novel. So I do agree that he likely would've been a far superior choice than Knaak for the War of the Ancients.

[pbot]

What I loved about "the Last Guardian" was the way that Gruub humanized the characters and the events. We all knew what was going to happen, but Gruub did the smart thing, he really built upon Medivh and Khadgar's relationship.

He also adds nice little touches to the novel, like when Khadgar and Lothar eat lunch, he describes them eating a roast fowl beautifully. Beyond Warcraft, he's just a good writer.

[Nephalim]

Well with any luck Rhonin will wake up at the end of the Sundering, and Vereesa will pat him on the shoulder and say. "Bad dream, hon?"

[Darktyl]

I still want to know how Neltharion become Deathwing. At first I thought maybe the Old Gods did something to him since they were chained under the earth. Neltharion being an earth warder might have an indirect link or something. It couldn't be the Demon/Nathrezim, cause he already evil (in a good desguise) befor they even sensed of Azeroth.

[Kingcrazygenius]

20,000 years ago he married my sister.

Happy now?

[WarDragon]

He heard voices in his head. No, seriously. That is how Knaack describes Neltharion's fall, hearing voices in his head. Personally, I am of the opinion that it was Sargeras, but there numerous other candidates.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Isn't it possible that he just went crazy? These days everything has to be demon this and corruption that.

[Diskordjah]

I like to go with King's idea. just plain ol crazyness.

[Darktyl]

He could have gone crazy all on his own. But for that to happen, there should still be a cause.

Unless the titan chosen wrong. Instead of choosing the good dragons to protected Azeroth, they instead choose the strongest, lol. Which was the case with Sageras i think.

So, from the beginning, Deathwing, just like Sageras, was easily corrupt. So, the first chance of seeing how suck the world is, Deathwing want to remake it in his own image, the perfect Azeroth, sort of...

Hey, I like that, the inherently evil Dragon, now that is just awesome.

[Rowan Seven]

In "Manual of Monsters" there's speculation that the death of a favorite child or a powerful relic brought about Neltharion's madness, but, as already mentioned, this is only speculation.

Personally, I suspect the Old Gods had something to do with it.

[Reign of Kalos]

I personally like the idea that he was bad. Always was, always will be. Just used his cunning and scheming mind to steer the world to his advantage siliently, then revealing himself for what he turely was. Now it's somewhere. Thinking, planning. Deathwing is out there, and he still wants the world to himself. A decent bad guy.

[Lord Kil'jaeden]

Personally, I suspect the Old Gods had something to do with it.
That is my favorite theory, as the Old Gods concept seem to be inspired by the Great Old Ones from Lovecraft, an Aspect becoming crazy because of the subtle influence of their voices would fit totally in that Old Gods story.

It would be sad to learn if it was "voices in his head" that do not exist that are responsible of all of this and just this, without other justifications, to the transformation of Neltharion into Deathwing.
At least , the idea of an Aspect that was evil since his birth, but decided to hide his real purpose because he had the goal to become a lot more powerfull when the Titans shared their powers with the 5 dragons, sounds better than that.

[Deathwing]

"The tall, forbidding palace perched atop the very edge of the mountainous cliff, overlooking so precariously the vast, black body of water below that it appeared almost ready to plummet into the latter's dark depths."

Kcaack needs to die. Someone should throw him off a mountainous cliff.

"It was a creature out of nightmare, in some ways lupine in form, but monstrously distorted, as if some insane god had created it out of the depths of his madness. Even in death it lost no bit of its inherent horror."

Did he actually write that? I'm afraid I might start cutting myself to distract myself from the horror his prose causes if I try to find out. I mean, "IT WAS A BIT LIKE A WOLF AND IT IS SCARY BECAUSE I SAY SO", dosn't that make you feel sick - from fear?

[Bloodbeard]

The Aspects definitely are an emotional bunch to begin with, ie. Malygos' despair and Korialstrasz' devotion, so it isn't illogical to assume that Neltharion simply was greedy. He enjoyed his power over the Black Flight, and began to crave more of it, which led to his corruption. I was more under the impression that the voices Knaak described were more of his will and desires, rather than his insanity.

[Cerebral_009]

Just started reading today - on a shift at work of course, i wouldn't be distracted from WoW otherwise! =)

Upto chapter 7ish, and avoiding spoilers, I had to post to say WTF!!! Xavius is the first Satyr? Interesting.... very interesting. Clarify for me though, Was it Sergares to Archimonde who moulded Xavius into his new form?

[Rowan Seven]

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Clarify for me though, Was it Sergares to Archimonde who moulded Xavius into his new form?

I believe it was Sargeras who resurrected and transformed Lord Xavius.

[Darktyl]

I thought the same thing. And since Knaak give the voice a name "Sageras", then he start to use the voice with Neltharion. I begin to think he implying that Sageras was corrupting Deathwing. :D But that would contradict his own story, lol.

remember he said in the first book, that Neltharion was already bad before the Demon even came to Azeroth?

That why Knaak's story suck...doesnt' really qualify as lore.

[KrewL RaiN]

I dunno if the voices in deathwings head are not infuenced by another being, he could have a split personality. He kinda reminded me of golem in that book were the demonsoul was his precoius. His insanity having a voice of its own, just a thought

[Nephalim]

Honestly I chalk (or should it be chock?) it up to Knaak's ineptitude. The Blizz team was probably: "All right, and remember, Deathwing goes crazy." And simply adding voices in his head is the easiest way to do this. Voices, whose origins are unaddressed, allow the character to become quickly convinced of anything. It's harder to illustrate how that character could convince HIMSELF of all this. But the logic isn't that hard to follow.

Neltharion apparently suspects the other Aspects of "betrayal," however, even with the aid of voices, what this betrayal would entail is left utterly to our imagination. This is apparently why he creates the demon soul and turns on the other dragons. However, and this is honestly just coming to me, this would make considerably more sense as Neltharion's chain of logic:

The Titans empowered us to protect this world. However, the lesser races gain ground with every passing century, and the night elves have certainly demonstrated that they are reckless and heedless of the greater good for Kalimdor. Alextrasza believes that this is the natural way of things, Malygos will never hold magic use against anyone, and Ysera and Nozdormu are too aloof to give any great thought to the matters of the physical world. However, these night elves are on the verge of unleashing the greatest enemy of life upon the world. Not only must these demons be stopped, but the lesser races must be made incapable of ever committing such atrocities again. They MUST be controlled, and I, Neltharion, seem to be the only one around with the vision, ambition, and power to do so. I know that my kinsmen will object, but I must be strong, and swift. I will see peace brought to this world if it means burning it down to the bare earth.

There. Not perfect but at least we can see where he's coming from.

[Darktyl]

totally agree, Neltharion was totally warp by his own logic and not by some external influence. Now I like him even more, lol