What If...

[xShadowleavesx]

Little details drastically affect events that occur in history, and that really isn't different from Warcraft history. So after reading the book What If, which basically looks at how the world would be different today if certain things hadn't happened, I decided to start this thread. Basically, we'll add a tiny detail into the storyline, and see how that affects all the different factions and races. Here's the first one:

Scenario: After killing Mal'Ganis, a now corrupt Arthas is sailing home to kill his father. Unfortunately, his ship hits an iceberg, and he drowns.

New History: Terenas receives the news of his heir's death and imposes mourning on the nation. He dies soon afterwards of grief (and old age) and his daughter, Calia, successes. Uther and Jaina present their knowledge of the plague to her, and she summons the leaders to Lordaerons capital to discuss the nature of the plague. The frightened leaders of the Western Kingdom decide to send their armies into Northrend finish off the weakened Scourge before the Lich King can rebuild his defeated army, while the wizards of Dalaran try to find a cure for the plague.

Of course, this doesn’t just affect the Alliance; The Legion's plans have now been halted, and the Scourge has been greatly weakened as the Lich King planned to make up for his losses by having Arthas slay Terenas and hand Lordaeron to him. The Alliance will slowly advance in Northrend, until they face the Lich King at Icecrown; the outcome of that battle can be disputed, though my guess is they'll both wind up taking huge losses.

The Horde will be changed drastically. They will arrive in Kalimdor and befriend the Taurens, but without the humans arrival Grom and Thrall won't have anything to split up about. Thrall will meet Medivh in Stonetalon peak, although I’m sure Medivh, aware of the events going on in Lordaeron, is now unsure of when the Legion will be able to invade. He'll probably tell them to settle and bide their time. Of course, this will lead to War with Cenarius; which will end disastrously for the Orcs this time unless the Taurens go with them and act as peacemakers between their two battling allies.

I'm sure people have their own opinions as to what would happen if Arthas dies, so post your own theories. Once this scenario is no longer of any interest, someone will start a new one to keep the thread going. I hope you guys enjoy it.

[perfectgamer911]

since when are the taurens allies of the Night Elves, at least their not before the Orcs, Humans and Night Elves allied.

[SuRReAL OrC]

Arthas getting killed isn't a 'tiny detail'.

[Nephalim]

I'm sorry, I just find these exercises a little inane, because we can only guess as to what would happen and it doesn't grant us any real insight into anything. We have no idea how Calia would act, we have no idea how Jaina and Uther would act. In fact, they might not have even discovered the nature of the Plague. Jaina left Lordaeron before Arthas got back anyway, so it's foreseeable that this wouldn't have even affected her anyway.

And let's think about who we're talking about here, the nigh-omnipotent Lich King. Do you really think he would let all of his plans hinge solely on the shoulders of some boy? If Arthas had died, someone would've taken his place. It was never really about him anyway.

[Kingcrazygenius]

I dunno, are we certain Arthas would die should his ship sink?

But assuming he does, I don't think the scourge would be as weakened as you think. Most likely Arthas was stringed along the most direct route to Frostmourne, so much of the undead forces were passed.

The attack on Lordaeron would go on, except Ner'zhul would have to settle on a dreadlord to lead his forces, most likely either Anetheron or Mephistroth (I think the former). The scourge would find difficulty taking down Lordaeron, but by raising the fallen warriors and plauging all the food they would fall.

From there things would go as they did, Anetheron carries the remains of Kel'thuzad to Quel'thalas and destroys it, however not being subject to petty hatreds like Arthas Sylvanas would either be totally killed (and not made a Banshee) or miraculously escape with some of her Ranger Corps and meet up with Kael'thas' forces whom were obviously somewhere else. Embittered by her defeat and inability to save her home she would go all Blood Elf on us and end up with some kickass new abilities.

From there it's business as usual, Archimonde is summoned by Kel'thuzad, Tichondrius and the dreadlords are given ownership of the Scourge, and they all move on to Kalimdor.

When Illidan is released however, it is Kel'thuzad who greets him. Illidan will be greatly impressed and envious of Kel'thuzad's powerful magic, and plus Kel'thuzad is much easier to get along with than Arthas. Combined with Kel'thuzad's promises of power and the Lich King's subtle influences Illidan goes along with Kel'thuzad's plans, he steals and consumes the power of Gul'dan.

Later Illidan is banished from Kalimdor. With Kel'thuzad and Ner'zhul around Illidan will grow much angrier at his brother than he would have otherwise. Kel'thuzad tells him of a powerful sword that can aid Illidan in destroying all of his enemies, including the Watchers who have probably begun to hunt him down now that the Legion is undone.

With Kel'thuzad and Illidan's combined power then manage to raise the part of the sea where Arthas lays. Illidan battles and defeats the revenant-like remains of Arthas and his sea-crusted forces, then takes up Frostmourne and becomes the property of the Lich King. Having nothing else to do, he ends up fusing with Ner'zhul and becomes the super-uber powerful Lich King.

The Naga, having never been called upon, will still be at the bottom of the sea, planning and calculating.

The Blood Elves would have it a bit more difficult to do things without Naga help, but because Anetheron wasn't as spiteful as Arthas he was also a less efficient killer, thus more Blood Elves are around. Plus they also have Sylvanas, General of the Blood Ranger Corps. Plus their work would become alot easier as the Scourge would turn on itself (Lich King now kills the dreadlords that are around). Garithos' alliance, because Garithos wouldn't be trying to kill everything inhuman due to a lack of a good reason, would be all in all alot more stable. Without their being tried to be killed the Blood Elves would be alot less anti-human.

When we get to the World of Warcraft timeline the world is alot more polarized against the Scourge. Without any Forsaken and with the help of the Tauren the orcs and trolls would be able to remain unhostile with the night elves. Then again, it might just end up as Orcs, Trolls, Tauren and Night Elves vs. Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes and Blood Elves. And that would be cool. Blood Elves would probably have Rogue, Hunter, Warlock, Mage, and possibly warrior and priest classes. Of course Orcs and Night Elves would have a lower opinion of one another than the other allied races, like how the Forsaken aren't on good terms with any of their allies.

[SummonLemming]

All very possible. I present a new situation- you may proceed with Shadowleave's event or mine- I really don't care.

Situation #2: Kil'jaedan never finds the Orcs on Draenor.

Well, first of all, the Human forces would be much, MUCH greater- the tolls of both Wars would never have existed.

Medivh would still have been posessed by Sargeras, but would not have reached the Orcs- the only reason he did is because of Kil'jaedan's presence at Dreanor. He would, however, likely have been killed, seeing as how Sargeras would've tried to destroy the world through Medivh.

The most significant change would be that the Scourge never would have been assembled. Here are many of the things that would change.

The plague never would have been spread.
Arthas would still be sane, and Terenas alive.
Frostmourne would never have entered Azeroth.
Muradin, as a result, would be alive as well.
The High Elves would have remained intact.
Illidan would still be chained.
The World Tree wouldn't have been destroyed.
The Naga, never having been called to, would still be underwater.
The Eye of Sargeras never would've been found.
Anetheron, Mal'ganas, Tichondrius, Azgalor, Mannoroth, Balnazzar, Detheroc, Varimathras and Dalvengyr never would have entered Azeroth.

That's all I can think of right now. When you think about it, that is HUGE.

[yunn]

Wait, wait, wait... what if Warcraft NEVER HAPPENED AT ALL!

:g shake:

We know this topic is going downhill from the last post.

[Kingcrazygenius]

As shown by WoW, there are more than enough human agencies that the Legion would manipulate. Furthermore the Legion has encountered many many species in their quest for oblivion. Had the orcs not been used another species would have, possibly one that actually would have succeeded.

One of my favorite what if scenarios is 'what if Ogrim had killed Gul'dan at first opportunity and thus won the second war'

[Nephalim]

So wait, Lemming, you're basically holding that if Kil'jaeden hadn't found the orcs, they would've just forgotten about Azeroth completely? These plans aren't being masterminded by Plankton in an attempt to take over Bikini Bottom. The Burning Legion crafts plans within plans within plans, and Ner'zhul does the same. Nothing in THEIR plans hinges on a single event, that's a gamble they're not willing to make.

[pbot]

These "What If. . ." are always fun. By the way King, you're scenario was fantastic. It makes total sense that Illidan could be Nerzhul's new champion. But it would be a question of who would be better at manipulating him, the demons or Ner'zhul. Good stuff! :y-thumbsu

[Kingcrazygenius]

The way I see it it was all a matter of who got to Illidan first.

[WarDragon]

I've got two scenarios for you; run with either as you will.

1. What if Neltharion the Earth-Warder never became Deathwing? What if he never gave in to the dark whispers in his mind, never forged the Demon Soul, never turned on his own kind? How do you think Azeroth would be different today, if we had five good Aspects with healthy Dragonflights?

2. What if Malfurion had carried out Illidan's original sentence, and executed him rather than locking him up in the first place? Would Tichondrius and his Demon Gate have turned the tide at Mt. Hyjal, or would the Lich King simply have used Arthas or another pawn altogether? Would the Naga still have risen, and the Blood Elves still escaped their scheduled genocide?

[darksideslayer]

I really think these discussions are a lot enjoyable... I´m a little busy now, so I won´t post anything about this thread for now... But I´m loving to read these posts, they´re really very good! Go on, guys... You´re GREAT! :y-thumbsu

[Romanov77]

2. What if Malfurion had carried out Illidan's original sentence, and executed him rather than locking him up in the first place? Would Tichondrius and his Demon Gate have turned the tide at Mt. Hyjal, or would the Lich King simply have used Arthas or another pawn altogether? Would the Naga still have risen, and the Blood Elves still escaped their scheduled genocide?

The pawn would have been easily found. There are dozens of dumb "pawnable" people in the world of warcraft, Arthas in primis.

Tichondrius...he's pictured as a VERY strong Dreadlord,
both in story and gameplay...
If Illidan, who was a strong being, needed a very powerful artifact to defeat him, then we can expect that things would have been A LOT harder for the defenders of Mt Hyjal....
I bet they would have fallen.

About Naga nad Blood elfs... who knows what could have happened?

[Kingcrazygenius]

Sure there are several potential pawns, but how many know enough about controlling raw arcane energy to properly channel Gul'dan's energies like Illidan?

[yunn]

Ever read/watched Time Machine? It's like if you go back in time to try and change something, you can't affect the future as it already is.

So if Illidan hadn't risen the naga, some other guy would probably have, and similarly Blood Elves would have been created in a similar fashion.

But, I like Back to the Future more than Time Machine. So there.

[Kingcrazygenius]

That's a ****ty kind of time manipulation. **** it up the flux capacitator.

[yunn]

Flux capacitor.

[Diskordjah]

whassat mean?

[yunn]

It means KCG has bad spelling. :lol:



Oh, and the flux capacitor is the electronic component thingy from Back to the Future which sort of enables the time machine/car to travel through time. Not really sure since I haven't watched it since a long time ago, but that's sort of the idea.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Nerd :y-evil:

[Romanov77]

lol, must watch that movies again!

[Raistlin Majere]

Oh, and the flux capacitor is the electronic component thingy from Back to the Future which sort of enables the time machine/car to travel through time. Not really sure since I haven't watched it since a long time ago, but that's sort of the idea.
it controls the flux of the space-time continuum during time travel.

speaking of Back to the Future, I saw a DeLorean for sale, MUST BUY!!!!! :y-crazy:

lol, must watch that movies again!

Lovely grammar. :y-wink2:

[Kingcrazygenius]

English isn't his first language so **** off.

[Nephalim]

"Tom can you tell us more about the time portal?"

"Yes, this time border apparently follows the rules of 'Terminator' time traveling, which is one way, and no going back, as opposed to 'Back to the Future' rules, which allows going back and forth freely, and of course, 'Timerider' rules, which are just plain silly..."

[pbot]

"Tom can you tell us more about the time portal?"

"Yes, this time border apparently follows the rules of 'Terminator' time traveling, which is one way, and no going back, as opposed to 'Back to the Future' rules, which allows going back and forth freely, and of course, 'Timerider' rules, which are just plain silly..."

My favorite episodes are the ones where the hero is transported to a future where the villain has won. I love those episodes. X-Men had it in 'the Days of Future Past' and 'the Age of Apocalypse.' Also, there was a kick ass episode of Gargoyles which was like that, and even an episode of Batman.

[Romanov77]

English isn't his first language so **** off.

Thanks comrade, but there's no need to be so violent :g laugh:

Btw, if I make other mistakes, you MUST correct me...
Where's the error(s) in my previous sentence?

[Kingcrazygenius]

your only real mistake was saying movies when it is just one movie. Movies is the plural for movie, and since is it only one movie you just say movie. Though you could have put an I in there so as to say "I must see that movie again"

[Reign of Kalos]

your only real mistake was saying movies when it is just one movie. Movies is the plural for movie, and since is it only one movie you just say movie. Though you could have put an I in there so as to say "I must see that movie again"
Or possibly, as Back to the Future is a trilogy, and movies, meaning more than one, was intentional, it would go something like "I must see those movies again". KCG is right thought if you are refering to just the one however, the word 'those' only comes in to play when you get more than one.

[darksideslayer]

Mmmm, can you come back talking about the Warcraft 'What if's'? It was really interesting. As I have already said, I'm a little busy these days, so I won't post anything, but I just wanna see you talking about it, becaus it was getting really interesting (until you begin to talk abou BtF, and other things)... :g-shake:

[SummonLemming]

When a thread wanders, it's hard to get it back on track.

But once again, outwitted by Neph. However, we KNOW all that stuff wouldn't happen as a result of the Orcs- some other races might've invaded, but different racial properties might have even wiped out the humans.

[Nephalim]

?

I didn't think I outwitted anyone, but I'll take whatever credit I can get.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Get back to scrubbin' floors Nepharella.

[Val'Navatthe1st]

<with some sort of childish expression> I know! What if we.... we were soldiers and commanders of each of the races? I was thinking if I was somebody...... the perfect host for my soul.....


If Arthas "drowned", well, his soul would be messed around by Ner'zhul first. If Ner'zhul succeeded[in taking away his soul], Arthas would be picked up by the Lich King's minions and will be converted into undead. Then he would go an' kill King Terenas. If he's dead, then probably his sister. I find this kind of thing possible.

[CanadianGuy]

OK I'll try and get this thread going again because it was cool with some of the one's you guys did :y-thumbsu

What if Sylvanis (I know it's spelled wrong, oh well) saw that her atempts to defend Silvermoon were fruitless and pulled all her forces back to defend the city. Arthas, finding the travel to silvermoon too easy, begins to talk with kel'thuzad about the lich kings plans.
Elvish spys hear the plans and return to silvermoon and warn the elves about Arthas's goal. Knowing that if the sunwell is destroyed even the remaining elves will eventually perish without a source of power the elves pull all their troops to the city for the final showdown. But the undead are to powerfull for the elves and they know that it is over.
Swallowing their pride (which is a big thing for elves, because they're, you know, elves) the last high elves destroy the sunwell, forever dooming their race and putting an end to Arthas's plans.
Of course now another power source has to be found to revive kel'thuzads remains. Sadly for the scourge his remains aren't strong enough to make the trip and are lost.
Because of this kel'thuzad is now eternally pissed because he was told he would be able to live forever in his new body, The dreadlords are now wondering if the lich king is as powerfull as they thought and take premature control over the scourge putting an end to the LK's story, Arthas slays himself because of the never-ending torment from kel'thuzad (he is the only one who can see him) and finds that special place in hell (as Uther menthioned earlier), since there are no longer any elves left there would never be a forsaken or blood elves and without their hinderence in lordaron and azeroth the legion easily conquers the human alliance and prepares to attack kalimdor.
This fight would have been harder and Archimond (having been summoned by the dreadlords) would still have died, but the rest of the legion would still be strong enough to lead other attacks (considering that without the LK's manipulation Illidan wouldn't have killed Tichondrious and probably would still be allied with the night elves), Illidan sees that his beloved land is in peril tells the others of how they could summon the naga because he doesn't yet have the power to do so.

In conclusion: In the end it would be basicly the races of Kalimdor Vs. the Burning Legion battling it out forever until some new power came along :y-huh:

[Bloodbeard]

I have a feeling if Sylvanas had retreated, it would just have made Arthas' drive into Quel'thalas that much easier. The defense of the capital would have been that much more strong, with waves of attacking elves slowing Arthas, but let's face it, at that point the Scourge was unstoppable. Arthas would have crushed the defenses nonetheless, and having no distaste for Sylvanas, he would not have punished her with corrupting her.

Arthas would have escaped the dreadlords, and the Frozen Throne would proceed as normal. However, WoW would be much different, as Balnazzar and the Nathrezim would have been in charge of Lordaeron. I would have to say that they would not have quite the same stability as the Forsaken, as their ineptitude and incompetence is quite proven when Sylvanas deals with them.

Here's another what if. What if Orgrim Doomhammer wasn't vanquished before the Battle of Durnholde?

[kooaznboi1088]

Interesting,

If Ogrimm Doomhammer lived on, I imagined the Horde would have been much more aggressive towards the Alliance. Unlike Thrall, Doomhammer is not a shaman, and was never trained to communicate with the Earth. Thus, he is less inclined for a balance between what he wants and what the spirits require of him.
Instead of guerilla warefare, Doomhammer would be an "in your face" policy towards the Alliance. While Thrall took his time and played it safe, Doomhammer would no doubt have raided the remaining internment camps. He would have cohereced HIS CLAN the Blackrock into joining his new Horde. Rend would never be elevated to the status of power he has now. Uther the Lightbringer would have had to face a two-front battle, one with the Horde, the other with the Scourge. Based on his successes in fighting the Scourge, he woudl have no doubt folded to the pressure of both.



MOST importantly though, I seriously doubt Doomhammer would listen to a human prophet. His hatred for humans goes behind that of Thrall's. I speculate that the Horde would never have met the Darkspear nor the Tauren. And that Durator would never have been founded.

If the Horde survives intact, then instead there could have been an Orcish terriory stationed at Lorderoan. A foothold unlike that of which the Forsaken has(fragile piles of land).

Also, the Battle of Mount Hyjal would have been at stake. Without Orcish forces to hold the line, Night Elves MIGHT not have been able to win the battle with only the help of some human refugees.

[Grt490]

Those human refugees would have had much more man power than they did at the actual battle, and the Night Elves would have still had Cenarius, in fact the humans probably wouldn't have become involved in the battle because of how much power the Night Elves would have still possesed.

[kooaznboi1088]

edit sorry for double post, server lagged.

[kooaznboi1088]

Not really, in the end they all fit in Theramore, and in the previous RPG books it said they are in fact small.

As for Cenarius, good point, but keep in mind Mannoroth would not have been killed either... therefore perhaps that might balance out the equation?

[Kingcrazygenius]

I doubt Mannoroth is really a match for Cenarius.

[SummonLemming]

Definitely not on the ground they'd be fighting. Cenarius is tricksy.

[CanadianGuy]

The humans in kalimdor would have had larger numbers because the orcs wouldn't have been fighting them before-hand.

oh and bloodbeard I said that the elves would have fallen to the scourge.

[Bloodbeard]

The humans in kalimdor would have had larger numbers because the orcs wouldn't have been fighting them before-hand.

oh and bloodbeard I said that the elves would have fallen to the scourge.

I realize this, I just had my own opinion on what would happen if Sylvanas retreated. I don't think any elves would get close enough to the vicious, rampaging Scourge army ravaging Quel'thalas to over-hear Arthas in a private conversation. He just wouldn't yell, "HEY KELLY! JUST A COUPLE MORE HOURS AND WE WILL BE ABLE TO RESURRECT YOU IN THE SUNWELL AS IT IS THE ONLY PLACE YOU CAN BE RESURRECTED AND AFTER THAT WE WILL FIND A WAY TO SUMMON THE BURNING LEGION INTO THE WORLD!"

As for Mannoroth vs. Cenarius, in a one-on-one battle there is no doubt Cenarius would be broken by the Pitlord. However, "Cenarius is crafty, and rarely appears out in the open", so its obvious his tactics are what Mannoroth is intimidated by, rightfully so as well, because "KILL & DESTROY" are about the extent of Mannoroth's strategies.

When I have more time I'll outline what I think would have happened if Doomhammer was warchief.

[kooaznboi1088]

The humans in kalimdor would have had larger numbers because the orcs wouldn't have been fighting them before-hand.

oh and bloodbeard I said that the elves would have fallen to the scourge.

I seriously doubt it would have mattered. Remember Jaina only took some refugees with her. If you look closely it was like Gileans BRIGADE, Lorderoan (something that signifies small unit), etc.

So yeah there would have been more, but how much more?

Yeah, now that I think about it Cenarius can beat Mannoroth. But still we will never know because both of them were killed by Grom Hellscream(hehe).

[CanadianGuy]

Actually when you think about it, if the orcs weren't around the humans would have just fought with the night elves instead, and would have had similar results.

As for Cenarius and Mannoroth, Cenarius WAS killed by Mannoroth in a way because he was killed just by one of Mannoroth's minions, therefor Mannoroth is the true winner of that battle.

[perfectgamer911]

but who says the humans and NE would have teamed up against the Burning legion. because the orcs also play a big part in the founding of the alliance. maybe the humans wouldn't be around because the NE fought them in the beginning too and then the NE would have unleashed there full power against the humans with Cenarius joining in.

[rudynoname]

it might not have happened but its pretty safe to assume medivh might have worked it out anyways and it might have been easier considering the orcs did kill Cenarius. however theres all these little things that could happen diffrently so we dont know. thats the problem with what if's. also without the orcs the alliance might not been strong enough to win....basicly all im saying is: who knows?

[Kingcrazygenius]

Yeah, now that I think about it Cenarius can beat Mannoroth. But still we will never know because both of them were killed by Grom Hellscream(hehe).

Mannoroth was killed by Grom, but it took the entire Warsong clan to take on Cenarius. And now Grom is dead. Dead dead dead dead dead. And unlike Grom and Mannoroth, Cenarius might grow back.

[kooaznboi1088]

Mannoroth was killed by Grom, but it took the entire Warsong clan to take on Cenarius. And now Grom is dead. Dead dead dead dead dead. And unlike Grom and Mannoroth, Cenarius might grow back.

And how would he do that?

[Kingcrazygenius]

Because he is the heart of the land, spawn of two great deities (one greater than the other), and because in one of those RPG books the Druids believe he may someday come back. Legends, hopes, and rumors are almost always true in RPG games.

[CanadianGuy]

I don't think Cenarius would grow back, but would be re-incarnated in some different form, Maybe the next all powerful warior for the alliance will be a Cenarius rabit lol.

[kooaznboi1088]

And the orcs would have another blademaster, only this time he's rogue(gives him an excuse) to slay that rabbit and cook him :).

[Kingcrazygenius]

Shut up already.

[kooaznboi1088]

Mannoroth was killed by Grom, but it took the entire Warsong clan to take on Cenarius. And now Grom is dead. Dead dead dead dead dead. And unlike Grom and Mannoroth, Cenarius might grow back.

In case you forgot, your favorate deerman had an army beside him as well.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Said helpers were not infused with demon blood. Not exactly a fair fight.

[Val'Navatthe1st]

OK I'll try and get this thread going again because it was cool with some of the one's you guys did :y-thumbsu

What if Sylvanis (I know it's spelled wrong, oh well) saw that her atempts to defend Silvermoon were fruitless and pulled all her forces back to defend the city. Arthas, finding the travel to silvermoon too easy, begins to talk with kel'thuzad about the lich kings plans.
Elvish spys hear the plans and return to silvermoon and warn the elves about Arthas's goal. Knowing that if the sunwell is destroyed even the remaining elves will eventually perish without a source of power the elves pull all their troops to the city for the final showdown. But the undead are to powerfull for the elves and they know that it is over.
Swallowing their pride (which is a big thing for elves, because they're, you know, elves) the last high elves destroy the sunwell, forever dooming their race and putting an end to Arthas's plans.
Of course now another power source has to be found to revive kel'thuzads remains. Sadly for the scourge his remains aren't strong enough to make the trip and are lost.
Because of this kel'thuzad is now eternally pissed because he was told he would be able to live forever in his new body, The dreadlords are now wondering if the lich king is as powerfull as they thought and take premature control over the scourge putting an end to the LK's story, Arthas slays himself because of the never-ending torment from kel'thuzad (he is the only one who can see him).


The Scourge would invade someplace else to find the power to revive Kel'Thuzad. There are probably some powers out there in the WoW equivalent to that of the Sunwell, y'know. If there aren't, well, Arthas would be doing what you stated.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Hmm, correct me if I am wrong, but the Sunwell's soul purpose was to sate the magic addiction of the high borne correct? It was not powerful enough to grant immortality and magic powerups, unlike the Well of Eternity.

[rudynoname]

wait but wasn't mannaroth's master, archimonde, defeated by malfurion who is cenarius's student??? doesnt that make cenarius the winner.

lol. im just messin. i just realized this and had to post it.

[kooaznboi1088]

Well, in answer to the Overgrown Deer VS Mannoroth debate heres something you might want to consider:

Agamaggan(fatass pig spirit) is 13 lvls of CR above Cenarius, more hp, higher base attack, higher hit dice, and higher AR was slaughtered by Mannoroth...

[Kingcrazygenius]

Are you still on that? You are pathetic.

[kooaznboi1088]

Are you still on that? You are pathetic.

Sore loser :y-flowers

[rudynoname]

Sore loser :y-flowers


it was a joke. well actualy all grom did was killed cenarius's physical form. if you want to get serious about this discussion: cenarius most likely still lives, while mannorth.....well doesn't.

[kooaznboi1088]

Well, all we have is that he might reincarnatae into a new form. And that is also just rumors. And there have been rumors about a lot of things that ended up to be false.

IF he is still around its probably just as a ghost or somesort of appartion.

[Kingcrazygenius]

When it is an ingame rumor it's almost always true.

Now shut up before I lose my temper and ban you.

[kooaznboi1088]

Rumor that Deathwing had infilitrated Azeroth: False(turned out to be onyxia)
Rumor that Jaina has a "very close" relationship with Thrall: False(yuck)
Rumor that Khadgar is still in outland/dead: False(try twisted nether)
Rumor that Alleria Windrunner was still in Draneor/dead: False
Rumor that Danath was still in Draneor: False

I'm just saying that it might not be true that he's stil alive because a rumor said so can be changed by blizzard.

[Kingcrazygenius]

And I don't GIVE A ****

SO SHUT UP ALREADY! GET LOST! STAY AWAY! NEVER COME BACK!

[kooaznboi1088]

And I don't GIVE A ****

SO SHUT UP ALREADY! GET LOST! STAY AWAY! NEVER COME BACK!

Lmfao wow...

[yunn]

I thought the heroes from BtDP are presumed dead, not confirmed dead.

And for an orc fan, how come u spelt Durotar as Durator... :g tongue:

[rudynoname]

i siad rumor in order to be non confrontational and not start up a flame war. its actualy stated in the rpg book. so much for "rumor"

[Kingcrazygenius]

Well there you go. He sucks. I win.

Story of his life.

[CanadianGuy]

Rumor that Deathwing had infilitrated Azeroth: False(turned out to be onyxia)
Rumor that Jaina has a "very close" relationship with Thrall: False(yuck)
Rumor that Khadgar is still in outland/dead: False(try twisted nether)
Rumor that Alleria Windrunner was still in Draneor/dead: False
Rumor that Danath was still in Draneor: False

I'm just saying that it might not be true that he's stil alive because a rumor said so can be changed by blizzard.

EEEEEWWWW! Jaina and Thrall!!!
Who would even WANT to have that rumor?

[Kingcrazygenius]

Meh, he was operating under a false assumption anyways. I said ingame rumor, as in the rumor exists as part of the universe. He was spouting a bunch of rumors we the players had.

[KnightOnAHorse]

Wait, wait, wait... what if Warcraft NEVER HAPPENED AT ALL!

:g shake:

We know this topic is going downhill from the last post.
IF IT NEVER HAPPEND I SHOULD PLAY ... Some Gamess :y-evil:

[Mymla]

IF IT NEVER HAPPEND I SHOULD PLAY ... Some Gamess :y-evil: that doesn't matter... warcraft _has_ happened...

[Zero the One]

Anyway.. Back on topic.. What if Mannaroth killed Grom and Thrall, recorrupted all of the orcs, banned the shamanistic teachings, and brought the orcs against Mt. Hyjal?

[Kingcrazygenius]

Azeroth would probably be a charred dead planet, and Archimonde would be a god...like being.

[Mymla]

Anyway.. Back on topic.. What if Mannaroth killed Grom and Thrall, recorrupted all of the orcs, banned the shamanistic teachings, and brought the orcs against Mt. Hyjal?
Yes, but apparently blizzard wanted a good ending, so Grom killed manorath and delayed the undead long enought for furion...

[Bloodbeard]

Mymia, I guess you can't grasp the idea of the What If...? thread, eh?

If Grom didn't kill Mannoroth, and Thrall died alongside him, I think the Lich King would have to step in. Illidan would probably have to kill Tichondrius and Mannoroth, or perhaps Arthas himself would have to reveal his true intentions prematurely. Either way the Lich King could not let Archimonde win.

[Tranquility]

Was any being in Warcraft actually capable of killing Archimonde physically instead of laying a trap for him? Sort of like the way the orcs managed to kill Cenarius with only the power of arms? If no being on Azeroth can, why not? If Grom can kill Mannoroth, why couldn't someone else have killed Archimonde?

[Kingcrazygenius]

Deathwing probably could, but it would be very risky, since he would be very weakened from the endeavor and thus an easy target for anyone who wants him dead (just about everyone who isn't a black dragon)

[quetzalcoatl5]

The other aspects could, especially if allied.

[quetzalcoatl5]

New what if...

What if Muradin hadn't died when Arthas took up frostmourne...

[Purplebeard]

Arthas and Muradin probably wouldn't fight each other since they were still friends at that point. Muradin and his dwarves would abandon Arthas, so he'd probably be unable to defeat Mal'Ganis on his own, in which case the Lich King would have aided him in his own sneaky ways so the dreadlords wouldn't know he betrayed Mal'Ganis.
Muradin would follow Jaina since he's seen what's in Northrend and knows what's best for the alliance, but he and his dwarves wouldn't have a major impact on the later events. Arthas would still have become one with the Lich King, but he'd have two more enemies to worry about (Jaina and Muradin).

[Mymla]

another what if... what if the guardian would have killed Artas + Muradin before they could reach frostmourne?

[Kingcrazygenius]

What if Muradin hadn't died when Arthas took up frostmourne...

It wouldn't change a great deal. Muradin would be there to help Arthas out. At that point if he refused to do so Arthas would have killed him and simply claimed he had died in the process of retrieving the sword.

Upon their return Muradin would probably confide in Uther and later confront Arthas just as the paladins did. And Muradin would die just as the Paladins did.

another what if... what if the guardian would have killed Artas + Muradin before they could reach frostmourne?

Ner'zhul would be very pissed off that his 'perfect body' was defeated. It would mean that he would have to find a new host. This would be EXTREMELY difficult, considering there are not alot of people who have all the attributes that made Arthas the perfect new body; an optimal physique, youth, skill, and a mind wavering between the light and the shadow.

In all likelyhood Ner'zhul would probably never find another like Arthas, and would be instead forced to use Mal'ganis to lead his undead forces which would probably lead to disaster for the Scourge and a few sorely dissapointed and enraged demonlords.

[perfectgamer911]

I think that if Arthas died the Lich King would have chosen Illidan as his champion. we all know that Illidan is very easily influenced by power, so all the Lich King has to do is promise Illidan enormous power and Illidan would be willing to do anything.

[KillAllZerg]

Without his champion, the Lich King has no way to contact Illidan without the Dreadlords being aware of it. Kel'thuzad wouldn't be able to contact him either, because without Arthas, he never would have been reborn. :y-candle:

Another what if, but with this one being in the past: What if Gilenas and Stromguarde never pulled stakes and left the Alliance? (they did after BtDP)

[perfectgamer911]

We're talking about the Lich King who still has all of his powers here. he managed to contact Arthas, why wouldn't he be able to contact Illidan, he could have used Mal'ganis again.

[Kingcrazygenius]

I think that if Arthas died the Lich King would have chosen Illidan as his champion. we all know that Illidan is very easily influenced by power, so all the Lich King has to do is promise Illidan enormous power and Illidan would be willing to do anything.

But for Illidan to get free relies on the undead being successful enough to summon Archimonde, which I doubt they would be able to without a leader as strong as Arthas.

[KillAllZerg]

We're talking about the Lich King who still has all of his powers here. he managed to contact Arthas, why wouldn't he be able to contact Illidan, he could have used Mal'ganis again.

Mal'ganis works for the Legion, not the Lich King. The only reason why he went along with the Lich King's plan to lure Arthas to Northrend was because Ner'Zhul was successful in convincing the Dreadlords that the young prince with help speed up the Legion's invasion. Besides, I doubt that Mal'ganis will tell Illidan to destroy the Skull of Gul'dan, therefore sealing the Legion's defeat.(unless he went total wacko... :y-crazy: )

[Mymla]

problably not but he just meant that Mal'ganis could contact Illidan so _he_ could destroy the skull....

[KillAllZerg]

problably not but he just meant that Mal'ganis could contact Illidan so _he_ could destroy the skull....
Did you not read the part where I said Mal'ganis would not tell Illidan to destroy the Skull of Gul'dan? The Skull was needed by the Legion to corrupt the forests and destroy the Night Elves' ties to nature. It was because that the Skull was destroyed that the Legion lost (or so Kil'jaeden says).

[Mymla]

Did you not read the part where I said Mal'ganis would not tell Illidan to destroy the Skull of Gul'dan? The Skull was needed by the Legion to corrupt the forests and destroy the Night Elves' ties to nature. It was because that the Skull was destroyed that the Legion lost (or so Kil'jaeden says).
gah! I meant that Mal'ganis would bring Illidan to Ner'zhul so that Ner'zhul could tell illidan to go to Kalimdor and destroy the skull. And i'm quite certain that Mal'ganis wouldn't stop him because he was eiter dead or didn't know what Illidan was up to, because Ner'zhul got him some work to do. Is that clear enought for you?

[KillAllZerg]

At that point in the invasion, Mal'ganis wouldn't do anything for the Lich King anymore. After Archimonde was summoned, he gave control of the Scourge over to the Dreadlords, making Ner'zhul completely useless. Besides, Illidan would have killed him on sight. He tried to kill Arthas when he first met him, but the deathknight was too strong for him. Mal'ganis is nowhere near the power-levels of Arthas.

[CanadianGuy]

I think if Arthas died Ner'zul would have gone to Grom. He had all the qualities he needed and a whole clan to do his bidding. Altho, he would need a fleet of ships to reach northrend (of course he was at sea by then so maybe that wouldn't have been a problem?).

Illidan would have been a poor choice because:
1) He was trapped in a cage w/ a army between him and the surface
2) He had no allies at the time that Arthas would have died, making him useless to do just about anything
3) He was oviously(sp!) already in Ner'zul's plan to defeat the legion as a pawn to be used and disposed of (but we all know that didn't work lol)

[KillAllZerg]

Doubt Grom would've worked either, with the demon bloodlust and all. Ner'zhul never had a good track record when it came to demons...

[perfectgamer911]

I think Grom isn't a good choice, he was easily corrupted by the demons, who are enemy's of the LK. so Grom would be turned against him.

[CanadianGuy]

Grom was corupted because the demons offered him and his race power, therefor he is corupted by power not just by demons. Kinda like Illidan isn't it?

[KillAllZerg]

Illidan never drank damon blood. But I guess your analogy is correct.

[Nephalim]

Illidan never drank damon blood.He consumed a demon's spirit. It's close enough.

[kooaznboi1088]

Meh, he was operating under a false assumption anyways. I said ingame rumor, as in the rumor exists as part of the universe. He was spouting a bunch of rumors we the players had.

I'm sorry to resurrect this, and I know I shouldn't but NO all those rumors were in the game/rpg books/novels. Glad to see your a full member again :y-thumbsu

As for Arthas' standin I wish to say that the best replacement would be Illidan. He has all the capabilities of Arthas and more. Being a more powerful sorcerer and more experienced fighter he probably would have done better than Arthas anyway. Also, Illidan is very ambitious and powerhungry and probably would have accepted the Lich King's offer first had he not been approached by Kiljaeden.

[twisted orc]

mistaken,
disconsider the post

[Diskordjah]

I'm sorry to resurrect this, and I know I shouldn't but NO all those rumors were in the game/rpg books/novels. Glad to see your a full member again :y-thumbsu

As for Arthas' standin I wish to say that the best replacement would be Illidan. He has all the capabilities of Arthas and more. Being a more powerful sorcerer and more experienced fighter he probably would have done better than Arthas anyway. Also, Illidan is very ambitious and powerhungry and probably would have accepted the Lich King's offer first had he not been approached by Kiljaeden.

I think we've seen pretty clearly that Illidan is NOT the more experienced fighter.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Fel Hellscream vs. Half-demon Illidan. Who would pwn who?

[Reign of Kalos]

I'm leaning towards the Fel Hellscream. If it got the king of the Pitlords, a fully blooded demon overlord, it should be able to see off some whining little nightelf on a magic binge. Hellscream's certainly, unquestionably in fact, the better warrior out of the two.

[lordshadowbane]

Illidan took down Archimondes general, Tichondrius, and Magtheridon.

[SummonLemming]

Was it really confirmed that Magtheridon was actually killed, not just removed of power? And anyways, he slew Tichondrius with the power from the Skull. Sure, Tichondrius was a rather worthy foe, but a demon overlord is far more powerful, more difficult to kill than one of the Nath'rezim. Nath'rezim aren't exactly the biggest on fighting, y'know. I think Fel Hellscream would've won, hands down.

[twisted orc]

Was it really confirmed that Magtheridon was actually killed, not just removed of power? And anyways, he slew Tichondrius with the power from the Skull. Sure, Tichondrius was a rather worthy foe, but a demon overlord is far more powerful, more difficult to kill than one of the Nath'rezim. Nath'rezim aren't exactly the biggest on fighting, y'know. I think Fel Hellscream would've won, hands down.

Tichondrius wasn't an ordinary Nath'rezin. He was the champion's of Sargeras champion, Archimonde. He was also the elite guard, maybe the most powerful of his kind.
When Illidan faced Magtheridon, his powers wasn't the same when he defeated Tichondrius. Some of the earned power splited off.

[Nephalim]

Though they never showed or spoke of his death in the Frozen Throne campaigns, the RPG books specifically said Magtheridon was dead.

Regarding Tichondrius, he may be the baddest of the Nathrezim, but he's still a Nathrezim, and their strength is in manipulating events from BEHIND the lines. Shadows and Light stresses this quite a bit. His mettle, as far as combat is concerned, has rarely been tested.

And I have no reason to believe that Illidan became less powerful between his fights with Tichondrius and Magtheridon. Can you source that, Twisted?

[lordshadowbane]

So Illidan didn't prove his power as much as Grom did. But look at Arthas, the only thing he killed was Malganis and as we can see he is very powerful.

[Pureauthor]

Mannoroth is called the Butcher for a reason. In straight out fight, he'd kill Tichondrius and then stop by The Restuarant at the End of the Unvierse for cheeseburger.

Fel Hellscream> Half- Demon Illidan.

[WarDragon]

So Illidan didn't prove his power as much as Grom did. But look at Arthas, the only thing he killed was Malganis and as we can see he is very powerful.
The only reason Illidan is still alive is because he wasn't worth the two seconds it would take to plunge Frostmourne through his unconscious, mutated body.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Harsh. I need to find a currently living manly warrior type character to say is awesome.

[Lord Kil'jaeden]

The only reason Illidan is still alive is because he wasn't worth the two seconds it would take to plunge Frostmourne through his unconscious, mutated body.

Another explanation could be that Arthas couldn't use those 2 seconds to put a definitive end to Illidan's life, time was running out for Ner'zhul and maybe each seconds left would have been precious for him.

I assume Illidan's powerfull allies were very near too, and maybe the Lich King loss of power would have been fatal to Arthas or for Ner'zhul himself (losing control on the Scourge or just running out of power) if the Deathknight had lost more seconds to kill Illidan or even more time to face his allies (even along Anub'Arak) that were certainly coming to the rescue
As we know they came at the duel location to take Illidan back.

[Kingcrazygenius]

I like that explanation better. Much more dramatic and climatic.

[Nephalim]

I think it a tad naieve to claim we can accurately measure value or power by fights won. I generally think it a tad naieve to attempt to measure value or power by any means. But we don't know the extent of Illidan's strengths just because Grom scored a better kill than he did. Illidan never faced Mannoroth. So, yes, we can guess, but these are hardly definitive predictions.

If Arthas had, for whatever reason, become unable to fulfil his duties as host, I think his most probable choice would've been another one of his death knights. I mean we can argue who's the strongest mortal around, but everyone's glossing over a key detail - it was ARTHAS who put the crown on his head. Simply being the baddest doesn't make you a candidate. Arthas gave himself over to Ner'zhul completely. This is not the kind of devotion you'd be likely to get out of either Illidan or Grom. In fact, Grom would probably be pretty pissed off at being abandoned by Ner'zhul as Draenor was crumbling beneath their feet.

[twisted orc]

(...)And I have no reason to believe that Illidan became less powerful between his fights with Tichondrius and Magtheridon. Can you source that, Twisted?

I think I can, something about it is talked in the TFT events. Give me some time and I will answer you.

[Kingcrazygenius]

That's something Warcraft III missed; an orcish reckoning with Ner'zhul. For Thrall the matter is easy to ignore, but for older members the past may not be quite dead.

[CanadianGuy]

I think this thread needs a push back on topic again...
What if Illidan never got the chance to use the eye of saragaras at all? Would Arthas have gone back to northrend? Would the scourge still be under ner'zul's control? :y-huh:

[lordshadowbane]

The scourge is still part of Nerzhul's control. If you mean the Forsaken I assume they still would be...

[KillAllZerg]

The scourge is still part of Nerzhul's control. If you mean the Forsaken I assume they still would be...
I wish they were. The Scourge has always been my favorite race. Hate to see them break apart into two factions.

[Nephalim]

You're disappointed at the Forsaken? Hands down the most unique take on undead ever, and that's including Shaun of the Dead?

[KillAllZerg]

They are unique and enjoyable, but I like the idea of eternal servitude much more. Those within the forsaken can always backstabe one another, but such things are forbidden within the Scourge. (it only takes one mental thought from the Lich King and everyone would immediately stop their bickering)

[Kingcrazygenius]

You're disappointed at the Forsaken? Hands down the most unique take on undead ever, and that's including Shaun of the Dead?

Easily my favorite zombie movie ever, even though it's really more of a romantic comedy that happens to have zombies in it.

[Clord]

What if...

Uther order that Arthas come back to capital city is sucesfull...

[lordshadowbane]

Then we'd need a new leader of the scourge. We already answered that question...

[Val'Navatthe1st]

Time to start a new question, I presume?

Let's get on with it.








I'm waiting :y-square:

[kitchellw]

Uther order that Arthas come back to capital city is sucesfull...

uther never success, the reason is the lich king know that the arthas WIll pick up the forstmone and WILL become a death knight as his champon... the lich king forsaw that ages ago, it was set in a huge plan, and can't be stop...

[Kingcrazygenius]

uther never success, the reason is the lich king know that the arthas WIll pick up the forstmone and WILL become a death knight as his champon... the lich king forsaw that ages ago, it was set in a huge plan, and can't be stop...

Ages ago? Can't be stopped? You sound like one of Kel'thuzad's cultists. Ner'zhul had only the time between the first and second wars to make his plan, no more than twenty years. There are alot of things in Warcraft, destiny is not one of them.

[perfectgamer911]

the whole point of this thread is to speculate what would happen when something goes different then in the game.

[Blastcan]

Ages ago? Can't be stopped? You sound like one of Kel'thuzad's cultists. Ner'zhul had only the time between the first and second wars to make his plan, no more than twenty years. There are alot of things in Warcraft, destiny is not one of them.

Second and third, and you're assuming Ner'zhul thinks in 2-dimensional terms like the rest of us.

[FirstBorneEldar]

Hmm about the Scourge:
-Kil'Jeaden wanted 2 kill Ner'Zhul because he slipped away from his powers.
-The Forsaken becema into exsisince.
-Arthas outmanouvered Illidan (who was helping Kil'Jeaden).
-Forsaken seeks to desrtoy everything.
-Sylvanas ordered to destroy Ballnazar and his brother (2 pawns of Kil'Jeaden)
*or was it otherwise?*

But know comes my clue: ''Are the Forsaken truly free from Ner'Zhul AND Kil'Jeaden or do they have an greater purpose they self dont aware of?''

[perfectgamer911]

I think there is something in store for the Forsaken, if it is their own will that it happens I don't know, but I don't think it is Ner'zhul's will

[Nephalim]

I've said it before, but possible not on this forum. If the Forsaken are under control of anyone else, it will be either the Legion or the Scourge, and either way, they would be massive liabilities. Ner'zhul's not in the habit of taking massive risks, and allowing the Forsaken to research a plague which could theoretically destroy him is not a good idea. Even if he were to stop them just before they finished, the work they had done would certainly give the Legion an ample head start.

I've also heard the theory that Varimathras and Balnazzar are still in cahoots, but I continue to insist that this makes no sense. While it's always a possibility, it seems like an extremely unnecessarily elaborate plot that involves seeing into the future, apparently. Because if the Forsaken are all a part of the Legion's plan, it means that Balnazzar would have foreseen Sylvanas' rise to power, and if that was true, then the three brothers could've banded together and easily crushed her before she became a problem. And since Balnazzar is effectively running the Scarlet Crusade, it makes no sense that Varimathras is sending waves of people after him.

Some might reply that they're using the Forsaken to test the Crusade and vice-versa. However, let's keep in mind that the hierarchy of each institution is not entirely under the control of either dreadlord. If Balnazzar was killed (which he is) then the Crusade could theoretically destroy the Forsaken, and the Legion would then lose whatever foothold in Lordaeron it once held. Likewise, if Sylvanas or anyone else ever found evidence of Varimathras collaborating with Balnazzar, she would kill him immediately. Then, if the Forsaken were to win against the Crusade, the Legion would again lose any standing they had.

Now, of course this MIGHT not be the case, but the fact that it could be makes it seem to be to be a plan the nathrezim would never put into action. There are just too many loopholes for monumental failure. And if all this DOES turn out to be part of a master plan, and DOES go according to it, then I'll certainly raise an eyebrow, to say the least.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Actually it is not so difficult to concieve if you think about Dreadlord motives rather than Legion motives. As I recall the pre-Legion Nathrezim went from world to world, using their psychic powers to stir up conflict among the races they came across. Why they did this I don't know, maybe each dreadlord claimed a race and had them battle to see who would win.

My theory is that Balnazaar and Varamathras are doing just that; pitting the organizations they infiltrated against one another in a never-ending cosmic game of Warcraft for their own demonic amusement.

[Nephalim]

That seems rather trite, on their part. They're in extremely precarious positions, and they're making those positions even more hazardous just because they're bored? While it's never been specified either way, I had thought their machinations were means to ends, not simply for their own entertainment.

But even if that were so, neither the Forsaken nor the Scarlet Crusade were created by the dreadlords. They're not taking allies and pitting them against each other, they're infiltrating organizations ALREADY at war and simply exciting the conflict.

What I think most likely is that Varimathras is aware of Balnazzar's survival, but didn't know about it at the time, and so he's attempting to dismantle the Crusade and kill Balnazzar before Sylvanas finds out that he failed her most critical test of loyalty. If it's anything more elaborate than that, then there's a lot that simply does not add up. Not to mention that this would all be going on right under Sylvanas' nose, and she's smart enough to realize it.

[Lord Kil'jaeden]

Ner'zhul's not in the habit of taking massive risks, and allowing the Forsaken to research a plague which could theoretically destroy him is not a good idea.
This plan, that is present several time in the undead...oops... humanoids quests and seems to be the background of the whole World of Warcraft for the Forsaken story is making me a bit puzzled when trying to guess about what could be the idea of Blizzard about the next step.

I really hope Blizzard will not make Sylvanas to take the place of the new Lich King with a combination of the plague and some artefacts/magic power/false alliances etc.. like they made Kerrigan to take the place of the new Overmind.
This seems so obvious that i would really be ashamed of Blizzard if things really go like this.

Warcraft is rich enough to feed itself with something different ... i hope.

In fact i hope to be wrong about this situation that is coming with its big feet , and that the lack of ideas that has already been repeated in several occasion on warcraft since some time is only a temporary "accident" or one of those gameplay "things" that will finally be re-written for a possible next stage.

[Nephalim]

The plague storyline could just fizzle out. I mean step back and think about it, and the concept seems a little ludicrous. Let's make a disease that only effects the Scourge undead, but not the Forsaken undead, who are biologically indifferent. The Scourge itself is made up of so many crazily different entities that attempting to assail them with biological weapons seems like a really bad idea to me.

Obviously the Forsaken won't be allowed to win on a global level. And I think (hope?) Blizzard's people are smart enough to see that they've already been "accused" of pulling a Kerrigan. If she were to take over the Scourge as well, I think they understand that the parallels would be too much to ignore.

On top of that, there's a lot more characters and adjoining factions involved in Warcraft than there were in Starcraft. Other people have a much older stake in his downfall than Sylvanas. Kil'jaeden and the dreadlords, Illidan and company, Thrall does but it's never come up and I imagine they're not going to explore that.

I like Sylvanas and I'm not trying to downplay her significance but she WAS sort of catapulted to stardom in those few Legacy of the Damned chapters. While I'd think it a safe bet to assume she'll play a part in his downfall (should it ever occur) I'd be hesitant to say it all falls to her. There's just too much else going on.