This just in, Forsaken not undead!

[yunn]

As undead players will know, they aren't really undead, they are the Forsaken. Undead players are those who broke free of the power of the Lich King. Post no. 19 (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=517770&s=blizzard&tmp=1#blizzard) with blue text.

I hope it was a mistake on Tyren's part, and he meant the undead are not Scourge. Or else... BAD BAD BLIZZARD :g shake:

Didn't finish reading the entire thread, it was so frickin' long.

[Kingcrazygenius]

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wanted them to be undead! I don't give a **** if Paladins can easily beat them. In fact that made it more interesting.

God ****ing damn idiots. They should listen to me and me alone for now on.

[WarDragon]

Well. That's one of Blizzard's more idiotic decisions.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Now I have to decide, exactly what kind of horde character am I going to make? The appeal of the undead is kinda fading, mostly because everyone seems to be doing undead.

Perhaps some kind of tauren druid...just like Kingus Crazyhoof, except Wildkin shape isn't an option. Plus I have a hard time picturing a tauren as needing a bear shape to attain strength.

[flaming lama]

do i need to pay fileplanet to try the open beta/final stress test? :y-annoyed :y-mm:

[Reign of Kalos]

Another sacrifice of logic and common sense over playablility. Stupid if you ask me.

[Diskordjah]

Crazyhoof is a pretty cool name though.

[Reign of Kalos]

Crazyhoof is a pretty cool name though.
I want the username "Fan of the K" or something stupid in reference to myself, that only a select few will understand. Or I could just go all old school and return to 'Kalos'.

[Romanov77]

In the age of chaos, 2 factions...

Seriously, this is really stupid.
They claimed the Undead as playable race for years, and now...

[Inquisistor7]

This is preposterous. Undead is undead. *Sigh* what's next? Are the Forsaken going to be the "sort of dead but not quite" race?

[Reign of Kalos]

I was under the impression that they were exactly alike to the scourge 'undead' troops, apart from some more free will (There isn't honestly that much, I mean they can't choose any other side to fight for other than the one that isn't agressive towards them, like it or die). In my book they function thesame, so why Blizzard have done this I don't know (Apart from to stop obvous paladin cheese, but they put a piss-poor reason for doing it this way)

[A-Thousand-Lies]

This is preposterous. Undead is undead. *Sigh* what's next? Are the Forsaken going to be the "sort of dead but not quite" race?

Aren't the undead "sort of dead but not quite"?

[Reign of Kalos]

Undead players are those who broke free of the power of the Lich King.
I think the poster is an idiot. He just successfully contradicted himself. The forsaken ARE undead how have broken free of the Lich king. And Following 'his logic' undead who are under the Lich king's power actually aren't undead, because to be undead in this dude's stupid and crappy definition they can't be because undead are "those who broke free". Does this mean that the scourge are NOT undead at all? Seriously, the guy's a dumbass and needs to look at what he is actually saying. How he got into a position of authority is beyond me.

Any troops that follow the Lich king aren't undead, and the Forsaken, which do come under his definition for undead status, are infact not undead for some reason which he fails to believe. Now if that's not a crap arguement, nothing is.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Aren't the undead "sort of dead but not quite"?

No, they are magically reanimated corpses. Physically they are dead, but they move around anyways despite muscle decay and such.

[Lord Kil'jaeden]

I agree with what is said here,
It is another case of how ridiculous it can be when a gameplay balance has the priority on the coherence of a universe.

[yunn]

I'm keeping my hopes up that that dude Tyren would post something like: "Sorry, was drunk when I posted that, please ignore. Thx." In trying to decipher his muddle-up, here's what I think it should be:

Originally:
As undead players will know, they aren't really undead, they are the Forsaken. Undead players are those who broke free of the power of the Lich King.

Definitions
UNDEAD PLAYERS = FORSAKEN
UNDEAD = SCOURGE

So rewritten, it would be:

As Forsaken will know, they aren't really Scourge, they are the Forsaken. Forsaken are those who broke free of the power of the Lich King.

Makes more sense save the poor English. But that doesn't answer the initial question. ****. Blizzard ****ed up.

[SuRReAL OrC]

Their over-pricing of WoW is even worse..... :y-evil:

[Reign of Kalos]

I'm keeping my hopes up that that dude Tyren would post something like: "Sorry, was drunk when I posted that, please ignore. Thx." In trying to decipher his muddle-up, here's what I think it should be:

Originally:
As undead players will know, they aren't really undead, they are the Forsaken. Undead players are those who broke free of the power of the Lich King.

Definitions
UNDEAD PLAYERS = FORSAKEN
UNDEAD = SCOURGE

So rewritten, it would be:

As Forsaken will know, they aren't really Scourge, they are the Forsaken. Forsaken are those who broke free of the power of the Lich King.

Makes more sense save the poor English. But that doesn't answer the initial question. ****. Blizzard ****ed up.
I still say that the guy's an idiot. Half the people on this forum manage to act more professionally than that. Too many logical errors, I don't think I'm going to listen to a word this fool says in future, even if he is a so called Blizzard employee. That isn't even up to the standard of amatures. "undead players know they aren't really undead"? Undead players, by definition, are undead. If they weren't really undead players, they wouldn't be called 'undead players' in the first smegging place! Worst reasoning I have ever seen, even the worst forumers we have had in here have managed to put together crap ideas, but give decent reasons for believing in those ideas. This is just unbelievable, the sheer level of ignorance, lack of thought, and plain gaps in logic should certainly not be listened to.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Plus he probably smells like the Dutch.

[Mark Romaneck]

Curse them all!!!

how could they do "this"!!!
Maybe im gonna reconsider trusting blizzard so much

[perfectgamer911]

Plus he probably smells like the Dutch.
what do you have against the dutch, not that I care I'm Frisian.

[Kingcrazygenius]

They smell like Denmark, that's what.

[Holy Knight]

I can see why they made this change balance-wise, although admittedly in terms of logic and lore it makes no sense at all. What I think would probably have been a better idea would be to have kept the old undead immunities the way they were, give them a weakness to holy magic as an offset, and made the paladin anti-undead abilities holy damage based skills that are useable against all opponents. That would have preserved the paladins' status as undead smiters, given them more combat variety and usefulness in general instead of just against undead, and been consistent with lore. It may be that the different changes they have planned for paladins will end up being better than that as a way to make paladins more effective and interesting in general, we'll just have to wait and see. But it still makes no sense to label certain undead as not really being undead.

[Diskordjah]

though I wouldnt have thought KCG had encountered danes in texas (though dutch seems to be everywhere!), I can only agree.

[Nitara]

He means undead as in the undead you played in Warcraft 3. In PVP your undead player still suffers all the same disadvantages of the undead monsters.

[Reign of Kalos]

He means undead as in the undead you played in Warcraft 3. In PVP your undead player still suffers all the same disadvantages of the undead monsters.
Now he didn't say that, did he? Don't give him credit he doesn't deserve. And we played as both Scourge and Forsaken anyway, so your point makes no sense to me. There is no difference between the Scourge and Forsaken other than the existence of free will. There is no reason for a difference or change, they are still undead monsters, in a state of non-life, operational only through the dark arts of necromancy. Why shouldn't holy light and other paladin type skills that were developed to fight against the vile creatures during the second war effect them?

[Nitara]

You sure took a lot of insinuations from my post that weren't there. I was just assuring the thread-starter that undead is undead, and it doesn't matter who you work for, and trying to guess at the rationale of the guy who made the quote in the first place. Lay off.

[Reign of Kalos]

You sure took a lot of insinuations from my post that weren't there. I was just assuring the thread-starter that undead is undead, and it doesn't matter who you work for, and trying to guess at the rationale of the guy who made the quote in the first place. Lay off.
Please don't tell my to lay off. Don't make sloppy posts and it's wouldn't give me anything to pick at would it? "the undead guys you played in warcraft" is far too vague, and can be interpreted a multitude of ways. Like I said we played as more than one, which one do you want us to think you are refering to? What the guy from is trying to convice us is that apparently we are all wrong and that the Forsaken are not undead. This makes no sense to most of us other than banishing the weakness to paladins and other holy warriors.

Now that's a pathetic reason for doing so. His rationale? Who gives a damn the guy's a fool who can't even make a logical sentence to support his own arguement. I've seen 12 year olds that can pull together more logical and consistant definitions than this. I don't exactly feel compelled to cut him some slack, since he has just announced the complete disreguard of what was a fundimental and most logical fact which until now we had been led to believe otherwise. Seeing as the guy is a Blizzard representative, what he says goes, no matter how dumb it is. If he says Forsaken are no longer undead, they aren't. Sadly that's it, we don't get any say. No matter how much this outrages us.

[Nitara]

Sorry, I didn't look at the link before now so I was seeing it out of context. Last time I played WOW, priests and paladins DID damage undead. I'll make it a point not to make another misstep under your watchful gaze.

[Reign of Kalos]

Sorry, I didn't look at the link before now so I was seeing it out of context. Last time I played WOW, priests and paladins DID damage undead. I'll make it a point not to make another misstep under your watchful gaze.
It is ok. Not a huge flaw. just make sure to read the topic in whole so you don't leap to conclusions. That'll stop assumptions making an ass out of you; literally. A well informed debater has a good foundation to make his or her points upon.

[lordshadowbane]

So what are they? Very gothic and badly hygiened Humans and Elves?

[IlidanStormrage]

Most likely :y-thumbsu !

[Nitara]

It is ok. Not a huge flaw. just make sure to read the topic in whole so you don't leap to conclusions. That'll stop assumptions making an ass out of you; literally. A well informed debater has a good foundation to make his or her points upon.OK, I'm sorry, but you're taking this patronizing veteran routine way too far, and I thought that I could stand it at first but this is ridiculous. First, I didn't realize we were arguing, considering that you said my post made no sense and then went on to say why it DID make sense. Second, this was the first news I got of this distinction between undead players and monsters. When the closed was still on, I rocked the pvp server with my undead rogue, and the only things that gave me pause were paladins and priests.

[Reign of Kalos]

OK, I'm sorry, but you're taking this patronizing veteran routine way too far, and I thought that I could stand it at first but this is ridiculous. First, I didn't realize we were arguing, considering that you said my post made no sense and then went on to say why it DID make sense. Second, this was the first news I got of this distinction between undead players and monsters. When the closed was still on, I rocked the pvp server with my undead rogue, and the only things that gave me pause were paladins and priests.
It didn't make sense from an informed poster who had bothered to read the thread, but then I realised how much effort you put into posts (Not even reading the main thread post properly) and that you were argueing from an uninformed and uneducated basis. Thus is made sense why you couldn't seem to understand the situation. Clear enough for you?

The news was in the thread. Read then post, not the other way around. And it's a BETA. In that things change, it's far from a finished product. Think in future. And this whole moronic newbie routine wears thin too.

[quetzalcoatl5]

And it's a BETA. In that things change, it's far from a finished product. Think in future.

This is a valid point. Remember the time when Necromancers built the entire undead bases? Or when the bloodmage had an all consuming flamekstrike and couldn't be hurt because of his one cast manashield?

[Kingcrazygenius]

Well they aren't going to chance alot, the release date is like 11 days away.

[quetzalcoatl5]

Well they aren't going to chance alot, the release date is like 11 days away.

Not true. If I'm not mistaken, the bounce on the huntress moon glaives wasn't in until the released version, which was why it was so unbalanced at first.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Anything involving night elves and bounce is a good thing.

[SummonLemming]

Oh, so many sexual connotations in the sentence, KCG. But, then again, why does that even bother to surprise me?

[Silver Bullet]

They aren't reanimated corpses. The reason the Forsaken exist is based on that fact alone. The Forsaken were created from humans who, while still alive, were infected with the blight plague. They aren't animated corpses, they're transformed humans, being more similar to the living dead than what you could call undead. Their bodies are decayed and their hearts have stopped, but their minds are still functional, and they still have a soul (that's the big difference between Forsaken and regular undead).

This guy seems to have the best idea about this situation, but that still doesen't help the fact that Tyren is a ****ing moron.

[yunn]

I don't really get it though. The first Forsaken being definitely did not rise from plague. I had the impression most of the Forsaken were risen the same way as her.

[Kingcrazygenius]

She may be the leader of the Forsaken, but from what I know Sylvanas is really more of a Banshee Queen.

[perfectgamer911]

how did she actually turn into a dark ranger anyway.

[Silver Bullet]

Err, I'm a little bit rusty but..when she was a Banshee she trapped a Ranger, I can't remember who then bassicly killed her and possesed her body.

[Reign of Kalos]

Err, I'm a little bit rusty but..when she was a Banshee she trapped a Ranger, I can't remember who then bassicly killed her and possesed her body.
That was in a user made campaign NOT the real, Blizzard approved story. We actually have no real idea, but the most common idea is that if you hack up her body, it is destroyed but her spirit lives on, and regenerates the corpse back to a useable state. Applying this to the Time when we saw her as a banchee, bodiless, it would be a fair assumption to make that she automatically didn't have her body on her as it was not in good condition (She had just been hacked up by Arthas) and simply at a slightly later date picked it back up for her physical form. An assumption of course.

We could go about argueing that the game dynamics got in the way, she never really appeared as a banchee which is most likely, just it was a filler model for lack of anything better. So much is ruined because of the details being untrustworthy.

[Lord Kil'jaeden]

From this page (http://wow.warcraftstrategy.com/lore/manualofmonsters.php) , dealing with the "Manual of Monsters" warcraft book
Sylvanas is still a Banshee, she just managed to get her physical form back. Although her Warcraft III abilities don't really show it, she still possesses the voice-related abilities that Banshees have.

[Silver Bullet]

That was in a user made campaign NOT the real, Blizzard approved story. We actually have no real idea, but the most common idea is that if you hack up her body, it is destroyed but her spirit lives on, and regenerates the corpse back to a useable state. Applying this to the Time when we saw her as a banchee, bodiless, it would be a fair assumption to make that she automatically didn't have her body on her as it was not in good condition (She had just been hacked up by Arthas) and simply at a slightly later date picked it back up for her physical form. An assumption of course.

We could go about argueing that the game dynamics got in the way, she never really appeared as a banchee which is most likely, just it was a filler model for lack of anything better. So much is ruined because of the details being untrustworthy.

My bad, it fit so well I thought it was the right thing..I can't even remeber what Campaign that was though..ah well like I said..I'm rusty on the subject.

[WarDragon]

You're thinking of "The Last Druid," by Luthien. Definately one of the best campaigns out there; but still not canon. Kalos has given the two most popular theories, and Lord KJ's link is the closest we've gotten to an official explanation.

[Silver Bullet]

You're thinking of "The Last Druid," by Luthien. Definately one of the best campaigns out there; but still not canon. Kalos has given the two most popular theories, and Lord KJ's link is the closest we've gotten to an official explanation.

I knew it had to be a good campaign for it to stick in my mind, regardless the inconsistancies that are comming out are starting to really piss me off..originally I was going to buy WoW for sure..now I doubt it.

[perfectgamer911]

I thought of that campaign too, but i knew it wasn't official, so we'll probably have to go with lord KJ's link.

[Nephalim]

This MIGHT actually make sense. Maybe. It depends on how the spells are supposed to work. I mean, what tells them that they're undead? The key difference between the Forsaken and other undead is will. The Forsaken have minds and desires of their own and aren't just walking corpses. So if the Holy Light channels negatively through creatures that don't have that will, it's possible that it wouldn't effect the Forsaken. I mean, the only description we've ever gotten is that it damages undead. We don't know why.

[SummonLemming]

Ah, Nephalim returns.

Anyways, what with the Holy Light description... One assumes that Dark Energies/Magics are used in the process of creating undead. Seeing as how Holy Light would naturally channel Holy Energies, it's assumed that with opposite forces clashing, the Undead would take damage from it.

[WarDragon]

I've gotta hand it to you Neph, I'm sure that will make far more sense than whatever the hell half-a**ed thing Blizzard comes up with to explain it, if they choose to try.

Still not buying it, though. Undead is undead; if you're moving and rotting at the same time, there's not a whole lot of wiggle room.

[Cerebral_009]

I've gotta hand it to you Neph, I'm sure that will make far more sense than whatever the hell half-a**ed thing Blizzard comes up with to explain it, if they choose to try.

Still not buying it, though. Undead is undead; if you're moving and rotting at the same time, there's not a whole lot of wiggle room.


...Unless the 'wiggling' is comming from the maggots pouring forth from rotting cavaties.

O.K, on another note...

WTF is was up with the demons gaurding the main gates of Ironforge. I only got there with my lv 18 NE hunter an hour or so before the servers closed, so that might have been it...

But there were, at the very least, two dreadlords, one doomgaurd, one infernal and, literally, hundreds of player corpses littering the main enterance to Ironforge.

[Reign of Kalos]

...Unless the 'wiggling' is comming from the maggots pouring forth from rotting cavaties.

O.K, on another note...

WTF is was up with the demons gaurding the main gates of Ironforge. I only got there with my lv 18 NE hunter an hour or so before the servers closed, so that might have been it...

But there were, at the very least, two dreadlords, one doomgaurd, one infernal and, literally, hundreds of player corpses littering the main enterance to Ironforge.
It was a Blizzard gag. They dropped burning legion troops all over major cities. There were felhounds too, I just logged out in time to dodge getting squashed.

[yunn]

The third invasion has begun. Brace yourselves.

[Grt490]

This MIGHT actually make sense. Maybe. It depends on how the spells are supposed to work. I mean, what tells them that they're undead? The key difference between the Forsaken and other undead is will. The Forsaken have minds and desires of their own and aren't just walking corpses. So if the Holy Light channels negatively through creatures that don't have that will, it's possible that it wouldn't effect the Forsaken. I mean, the only description we've ever gotten is that it damages undead. We don't know why.

Under that definition wouldn't Kel'Thuzad be a Forsaken, and also impervious to the effects of the Holy Light, along with all the other liches who as I understand have a measure of free will. Also wouldn't it harm most creatures conjured by magic, such as elementals, who have no will power?

[kooaznboi1088]

Under that definition wouldn't Kel'Thuzad be a Forsaken, and also impervious to the effects of the Holy Light, along with all the other liches who as I understand have a measure of free will. Also wouldn't it harm most creatures conjured by magic, such as elementals, who have no will power?

Well, Kel'thuzad according to Blizzard's new definition for Forsaken, is basicly one who would qualify as a Forsaken but is of the Scourge.



I am kind of disappointed by Blizzard's altering of Forsaken's profile. In TFT they seemed to be just a bunch of ghouls and other undead who were no longer under the Lich King's sway.
No one said anything about them suddenly remembering their Human memories and such.

[Nephalim]

They had their memories beforehand. Sylvanas remembered everything before her death, but she just had no will of her own.

Grt - SOME degree of personal will, yes, but ultimately they remain dominated by the Lich King. The Forsaken, on the other hand, have pulled themselves out from under that spell so completely that they're immune to other forms of mind-altering spells, as well.

Now I'm not trying to say anything definitive, but I mean what's the difference between undead and men raised from the dead by Paladins? We don't know what makes the spell systems work.

[Reign of Kalos]

They had their memories beforehand. Sylvanas remembered everything before her death, but she just had no will of her own.

Grt - SOME degree of personal will, yes, but ultimately they remain dominated by the Lich King. The Forsaken, on the other hand, have pulled themselves out from under that spell so completely that they're immune to other forms of mind-altering spells, as well.

Now I'm not trying to say anything definitive, but I mean what's the difference between undead and men raised from the dead by Paladins? We don't know what makes the spell systems work.
I'm not so sure. If they were mentally dominated, why would they talk to each other? If it was a single conscienceness, why talk to itself? I would say that they have a large degree, if not complete, freedom of mind. Combine this with Arthas in the TFT campaign recieving cryptic messages, acting as an individual trying to interpret the scene, rather than a mindless automatron following orders from constant mental presence. It just appears as if he only contacts directly his best when he needs to, and prefers to leave them with loose orders rather than a 24-7 bigbrother style complete control over every movement deal.

[darksideslayer]

Yes, Kalos, I think so too. But, still, they WERE raised by necromancy and ARE infused with Negative Energy, which gives Undead their properties. This doesn´t defines if a specific undead has free will or not, but the specific necromancy magic that were used to animate the body. For example, Vampires have free will, but Ghouls don´t. Now, Neph this differs from the Paladins´ Ressurection because ressurected (not animated) bodies are infused with Positive Energy, the complete opposite of Negative Energy (:P). You can understand it as Negative Energy being the energy that is the essence of death, and Positive Energy the one that is the essence of life. Got it? I hope it helps...

[Nephalim]

If they were mentally dominated, why would they talk to each other? If it was a single conscienceness, why talk to itself? I would say that they have a large degree, if not complete, freedom of mind.That sounds good in theory but keep in mind that while Sylvanas WAS dominated by Ner'zhul she interacted with other members of the Scourge. So I think that Ner'zhul might allow them some degree of free will to retain the talents they had in their former lives.

And about Kel'Thuzad and Arthas, while they are NOW free of all mental influence, that wasn't, we can say for certain, always the case. If Ner'zhul's voice was in their minds, his thoughts may have become indistinguishable from their own. They might think that they came to be loyal to him on their own, when in fact he was influencing them into that state of mind. Once they were there, he could withdraw. This wouldn't have been possible with more spirited people he brought back, like Sylvanas, who would never have sided with him on their own. So then, who's to say that Kel'Thuzad's will is truly his own?

Darkside - That all sounds nice, but you're not actually getting that from anywhere. We don't know enough about the sources of these energies to say anything definitive. You're just guessing.

And let's consider that there are, we know, multiple methods of bringing people back from the dead or just coming back on your own. I mean, to say that an abomination and, say, a shade share the same process is ridiculous. Undead seems to only mean that they're not dead when they should be, but we've all seen many, MANY different degrees of this. I think it's jumping to conclusions to say that the same energies created and sustain them. So then, why should we assume that one type of spell will successfully disperse all these different energies? Perhaps the Forsaken simply have a desire to live that renders them immune? Perhaps it is only that desire that sustains their existence, and that's something that no spell can break.

Once again, these are only theories, but you guys have to be willing to step back and think about what we actually know, and what we've just assumed from experience with other examples of the same genre.

[WarDragon]

I believe Darkside was using the D&D definitions of life and undeath, which makes a certain amount of sense, given the WarCraft d20 conversion. But, that doesn't necessarily hold water in Azeroth, however nicely it explains things.

Basically, I just think of Paladin's and others' Resurrection as a very powerful Healing spell, restoring the body to its proper state, whereas reanimation mimics the same effect using an outside force.

[Nephalim]

Yes, but then what about the undead who were not reanimated? The non-corporeal variety?

Keep in mind what the holy light is and what it philosophically entails. The humans worship no deities, and their powers come from within. To automatically assume that the nature of that power is going to be "holy" raised a few questions.

Remember back in the day, when the holy light was called "exorcism?" The belief there was that the spell (used by paladins, by the way) banished spirits from vessels they had no right to be in. Now I know that back then the term undead was happily limited to death knights and their skeletons, but if that's the way the spell is supposed to work, then who's to say that the Forsaken have no right possessing their own bodies?

We can't apply rules from other universes and expect them to hold, because we know that magic works in a very unique way in Azeroth.

[Diskordjah]

That sounds good in theory but keep in mind that while Sylvanas WAS dominated by Ner'zhul she interacted with other members of the Scourge. So I think that Ner'zhul might allow them some degree of free will to retain the talents they had in their former lives.

And about Kel'Thuzad and Arthas, while they are NOW free of all mental influence, that wasn't, we can say for certain, always the case. If Ner'zhul's voice was in their minds, his thoughts may have become indistinguishable from their own. They might think that they came to be loyal to him on their own, when in fact he was influencing them into that state of mind. Once they were there, he could withdraw. This wouldn't have been possible with more spirited people he brought back, like Sylvanas, who would never have sided with him on their own. So then, who's to say that Kel'Thuzad's will is truly his own?


perhaps the scourge functions the same way that the hierarchies of spirits function in gnosticism? theyre all part of the same, yet individual and removed from the centre, the same way as an arm is part of the body, the hand is part of the arm, the fingers are part of the hand. the fingers are obviously also part of the body, yet theyre further removed than, say, the wrist.

Ive always thought that the champions of the Scourge held some mental sway over their forces (otherwise, why would LK have use for commanders and champions?). so, the gnostic version of the scourge would be something like this:

body; Lich King.
arm; champions, ie Arthas, Kelly, Anub'arak.
hand: undead with more cognitive abilities, such as banshees, acolytes, necros.
fingers: the rest, ghouls, aboms, skeletons.

thus, the fingers obey the wishes of the hand, the hand obeys the arm, the arm obeys the body. smooth command structure since everyone is undyingly loyal. if all present members of a higher tier were to fall, say the commanding death knight, there would be some disorder before the further removed would seek out a new commander.

[Kingcrazygenius]

I was under the impression that Kel'thuzad joined the Lich King with only minimal manipulation. Great magical power and immortality seemed to be enough to secure actual loyalty from him.

[darksideslayer]

I believe Darkside was using the D&D definitions of life and undeath, which makes a certain amount of sense, given the WarCraft d20 conversion. But, that doesn't necessarily hold water in Azeroth, however nicely it explains things.

Basically, I just think of Paladin's and others' Resurrection as a very powerful Healing spell, restoring the body to its proper state, whereas reanimation mimics the same effect using an outside force.

Yes, WD, I am really using the D&D definitions of L&UD, and I did this because Azeroth is now a d20 Campaign.

Yes, but then what about the undead who were not reanimated? The non-corporeal variety?

Keep in mind what the holy light is and what it philosophically entails. The humans worship no deities, and their powers come from within. To automatically assume that the nature of that power is going to be "holy" raised a few questions.

Remember back in the day, when the holy light was called "exorcism?" The belief there was that the spell (used by paladins, by the way) banished spirits from vessels they had no right to be in. Now I know that back then the term undead was happily limited to death knights and their skeletons, but if that's the way the spell is supposed to work, then who's to say that the Forsaken have no right possessing their own bodies?

We can't apply rules from other universes and expect them to hold, because we know that magic works in a very unique way in Azeroth.

OK, Neph, here are some more D&D definitions of L&UD, you can accept or reject them, you're free for it, of course. Non-corporeal (Ethereal) undead have not the Body, but the Soul reanimated, and the come to exist in the Material World by being (Mmmm, how can I say it??) Half-linked to the Material World, through Necromancy Magic (permanently, until the Soul is destroyed). Any ethereal being might not be affected physical damage, but it has a 50% chance to avoid any magical damage (or physical damage caused by magically-imbued weapons).

Now, to the Holy Light effect: the Paladins call the divine power (EVEN if they don't worship any deity) to cast a strong, Positive(Life)-Energy-Based magical effect to heal a living being or to counter Negative Energy (the "Life" Energy of the Undead), damaging an Undead being.

Now, about exorcism, if I'm not wrong, you are reffering to the WC2's Paladins, right? The Holy Light Energy can damage the Undead Spirits (Ethereal Undead), by the same way it can damage a Corporeal Undead. It got this name, because it was being used only to this specific usage.

Finally, the Forsaken, even the Ethereal ones, are still Undead only because of the Negative Energy, their source of "Life".

I hope this helps you understanding my point of view of believing that Forsaken are still, Undead.
(Uff, this was loooooong... but good :y-thumbsu ).

[Nephalim]

I'm still going to say that just because the gaming rules are the same does not mean that lore is the same, and I think the very fact that the Forsaken are not affected by the holy light supports this.

This IS NOT dungeons and dragons, and I think we need to get away from using "Because it's like this in another thing" as alleged proof of our claims.

My point is that in Warcraft, undead is a very loose term, and I'm not seeking to prove that the Forsaken aren't undead. Indeed whatever the case, Tyren could've put his words together a little more thoughtfully, and if that's all we came here to argue, then I completely agree. But what I'm trying to say is that these things may not be so simple as light vs dark, and we shouldn't just assume that the same magics are holding together all manner of undead. If the undead just return on their own, I would think that they are different in many ways from undead who are raised by another individual.

[Kingcrazygenius]

I prefer Paper Mario rules when it comes to RPGs. There's only a few stats; hit points, flower points, damage, and defense.

[xShadowleavesx]

Still not buying it, though. Undead is undead; if you're moving and rotting at the same time, there's not a whole lot of wiggle room.

Ok, I'll use John and Sue to demonstrate the differences. I hope this makes sense.

John was killed during the fall of Lordaeron. He physically died, but his CORPSE was reanimated. He is basically a walking cadaver.

Sue's situation is different. She was infected by the plauge, which turned her undead; she NEVER died, and as such retained some vital things like a mind and soul blah blah. These are huge difference.

As to Kel'Thuzad, let's remember that Forsaken and Scourge aren't scientific terms for a state of being; they're factions.

[Grt490]

I prefer Paper Mario rules when it comes to RPGs. There's only a few stats; hit points, flower points, damage, and defense.

You forgot badge points.

Concerning the subject at hand, how would any new forsaken be created from the plague? I ask this because the Forsaken were created by a lapse in the power of the Lich King in which individuals were able to regain free will. But now his power has not only been restored but increased, so wouldn't all new plague victims fall under his control like they did before his lapse.

[Nephalim]

This occurred to me, too, and it's a matter that hasn't really been properly addressed. However, from my experience, there are several possibilities.

All right, now, as a Forsaken, you start out in Tirisfal. The only undead in Tirisfal are mindless undead, not part of the Scourge, as far as I know, but the entire region is plagued, to a degree, and the dead just have a way of coming back. There are also some Rot Hide gnolls, which are undead gnolls, but they turn out to be working for someone else, who I'll get to soon. Right now, in fact.

Moving on from Tirisfal, you go to Silverpine, and pretty much all the undead in Silverpine were created by and now serve Thule Ravenclaw. He created the rot hides (including the ones in Tirisfal) and commands an army of skeletons and ghouls. There are also some undead gnolls working for a banshee called Nightlash, but that's a small sidebar. Ravenclaw, we know, is working for the Scourge.

Now the villagers that became plagued and rose from the dead in Reign of Chaos did so under the watch of Kel'Thuzad and the Cult of the Damned, or Mal'Ganis. So I think that the Scourge may need a direct link to their dead, sort of a tether to the Lich King. So it may be that Ner'zhul can't just acquire these people by remote without any assistance, and simply dying from the plague isn't enough.

[xShadowleavesx]

Well, there's that, and the fact that the Forsaken are creating their own plauge at the moment.

[Grt490]

If I remember correctly, the plague was originally tested on human villages in Northrend. In these villages every man woman and child died and rose as a minion of the Lich King. He had few if any minions in the area let alone any with power close to that of Kel'Thuzad or one of the dreadlords, yet he gained control of them. The only thing that I can see that could possibly make my point meaningless is the proximity to the Frozen Throne, but now that his powers have in fact increased and he is able to move, this shouldn't matter very much.

I belive that for whatever reason the Lich King is allowing the Forsaken to grow in numbers. He has proven many times that he can play his enemies right into his hands, he did it to the the Legion and several others. Any actions that the Forsaken make against the Alliance or their Horde allies would only have possitive consequences for the Lich King with no effort on his part, such as the almost total destruction of the Scarlet Crusade, which gives the Lich King almost total control over North East Lorderan.

Concerning the new plague that the forsaken are developing, it is far from completion and a single plague that could wipe out all life and destroy all soulless undead wouldn't work very well due to the extreme differences in the targets, not to say its impossible just that the plague could back fire and kill most of the beings with souls on Azeroth, which would basically give the world to the Lich King

[Nephalim]

That's true about Northrend but Ner'zhul himself was significantly closer, it was on the edge of the Dragonblight which would've put it not too far from Icecrown.

As for the Forsaken, I think Sylvanas is doing everything she can to make sure that he doesn't succeed. Yes, he would benefit from having the Scarlet Crusade, for instance, destroyed. But Sylvanas' influence has grown VERY strong over the past four years and she's taking his powerbase out from under him in Lordaeron. Powerful agents are being systematically destroyed. She has the allies of the Horde and she has a mole within the Earthen Ring, not to mention two powerful spy agencies completely at her disposal, and agents within the Argent Dawn. With some pushing, she could probably retake the Plaguelands, and completely uproot Kel'Thuzad, and without him, Ner'zhul's influence outside of Northrend falls apart.

And all the while, Sylvanas has an extensive apothecary society researching the new plague. If the Lich King is just letting her do as she will to see where she goes with it, he's taking an awfully big risk. If she and her apothecaries were ever to stumble upon what they're looking for, he'd be finished. Finishing off the rest of the races are a secondary objective, because the Forsaken are allied with the Horde and as yet, they don't need them destroyed. If they were to only take out the Scourge, it would be a huge victory, and I'm sure the apothecaries would be happy to begin research on a third plague.

Ner'zhul hasn't had a hand in the Forsaken, so I don't see how letting them consolidate their power would be a good thing.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Also the forsaken are not growing in number, because as of yet they are unable to reanimate the dead by themselves. One of the reasons they are making this new plague.

[WarDragon]

I have a theory, which is almost totally without basis, but which appeals to me greatly.

What if the Lich King could take control of Sylvanas and the Forsaken at any time, but he's letting them maintain the illusion of freedom, either because they're indirectly helping him more than they could as mindless slaves (setting up the Horde? the new plague?), or simply because their struggles amuse him? After all, his psychic and necromantic powers have been described many times as "limitless;" between that, Ner'Zhul's talent for manipulation, and Arthas' sadism, I'd say this is at least a possibility.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Nah, I don't think the Arthas in him has the patience to let Sylvanas do this for this long. He wants her in constant and eternal pain.

[WarDragon]

True; but remember, he knows how much she hates being undead. Perhaps he realizes that simply letting her remain animated and independent is the cruelest thing he could do to her, short of eventually letting her know it was all for nothing. And Ner'Zhul was nothing if not patient.

[Silver Bullet]

Ultimately, Sylvanas and her rebel undead (known as the Forsaken) claimed the ruined capital city of Lordaeron as their own.

That is a quote from the Warcraft story...Tyren is a moron, or whoever told him to was. They contradict themselves in the biggest way in the Warcraft III FT game they are undead in the story they are undead, and so they just decide for balance issues that the Forsaken which have been undead aren't undead and all of a sudden know it even though they have many characteristics of it.

Also I think somewhere in the story it says the plague ACTUALLY kills the people so they are dead and then they raise again so they are undead....they just are....

And as for the Lich King, I believe that he has Arthas's memories but Arthas has no sway over his body, the Lich King would not give himself over to someone who is so impatient and spur of the moment. If anything Arthas may still be able to be heard by the Lich King but he has the final say, that is my opinion at least.

[Diskordjah]

So it may be that Ner'zhul can't just acquire these people by remote without any assistance, and simply dying from the plague isn't enough.

see above gnostic theory.

[Cerebral_009]

Is it not all a question of -soul-?

None of the subjugated Scourge possess any soul of any kind...., true? Aboms, ghouls, cryptfiends, animated corpses and skellies. Only the loyal higher powers like the Liches do, and their souls are "bound" to the Lich King - so not really belonging to them anymore.
The ones that are a twisted version of their own souls, like the Banshees, are loyal to Nerzhul through the powers he has bestowed upon them, and his own powers of persuasion. Their soul has become twisted, and without guide... not really a true -soul- any longer.

The Holy Light comes from within... within where? The capillaries? The Alveoli? The Medulla-Oblongata? No, form the -soul-! This divine internal -soul- power, can heal souls, or harm the soulless.

The Forsaken al have their own souls, so the Light wouldn't affect them. Is it not the case that the Forsaken Priests practice their own version of the Light? One that comes from a darker place, a darker and more bitter soul who has seen much suffering and feels much hate.

That's my take, it works for me. It's now open for all to pick apart as they see fit. Convince me of another, more plausible theory, and I may convert.


:y-thumbsu

[Nephalim]

Dragon I disagree purely because the Forsaken are currently making very decisive victories over powerful agents of the Scourge, and if I were the Lich King, I would question the cost/benefit ratio of this venture. And like I said before, if Faranell and his apothecaries should just stumble upon the new plague they're looking for, Ner'zhul is finished. So if he can retake the Forsaken at any time, then he's taking a huge risk leaving them free, and in my experience of him, Ner'zhul tries very hard to never take risks. They're a liability right now.

Cerebral - That's a good theory, except that Warcraft has never had the soul as anything but an abstract thing, not a tangible power source like, say, Mortal Kombat.

[Grt490]

Ner'Zhul has taken many risks to get to where he is now, such as during the invasion of the Legion, his silent rebellion could have cost him everything in a minute, or when he allowed Arthas to take Frostmourne, which he knew would eventually cause him to weaken, but the reward has always been worth the cost. That holds true in this instance, with the Apothecaries developing a new plague he could easily muster his forces, take the nearly completed work, modify it, and use it to wipe out the Forsaken. He could also be using the Forsaken to further his own ends, he could send some of his stronger minions to Kalimdor under the ruse of being Forsaken, which would help him fortify his holdings there much easier than any other way.

If Ner'Zhul truly wanted the destruction of the Forsaken he could do so using only a fraction of his amassed forces in Northrend.

[yunn]

Cerebral - That's a good theory, except that Warcraft has never had the soul as anything but an abstract thing, not a tangible power source like, say, Mortal Kombat.Didn't the last level of the orc campaign (RoC) require some kind of soul gem to capture Grom? If you could capture a soul, it's kinda tangible. *shrugs* ... though it's not a power source...

[Nephalim]

Ner'Zhul has taken many risks to get to where he is now, such as during the invasion of the Legion, his silent rebellion could have cost him everything in a minute, or when he allowed Arthas to take Frostmourne, which he knew would eventually cause him to weaken, but the reward has always been worth the cost.
But think about his rebellion. HE never did anything. He manipulated others into doing his work for him. If Illidan had failed to destroy the Skull of Gul'dan and Tichondrius, then the invasion would've gone forward, and the demons wouldn't have thought anything of it. Frostmourne wasn't supposed to cause that kind of power loss so quickly, but rather it was Illidan's tremors that caused the crack in the Frozen Throne, which wasn't part of his plan. And since Illidan wasn't part of his plan, then his loss of power wasn't either, which means that Sylvanas' rebellion couldn't have been.

He has replacements for all of his most trusted advisors. Arthas was likely his first choice for a host, but if he had been killed, then there were all those other death knights, each with runeblades of their own, who could have easily taken his place. Nothing hinges on a single person EXCEPT when he's forced into a corner by other people.

Sylvanas, and the Forsaken, are too big a liability, because if he can't gain control over them, then he's totally screwed. And the longer he lets them have their freedom, the more time they have to find methods of keeping their wills intact.
If Ner'Zhul truly wanted the destruction of the Forsaken he could do so using only a fraction of his amassed forces in Northrend.I disagree. His forces were severely crippled in the battle with Illidan and his minions, and Anub'arak was barely holding the line. And now that Sylvanas and Thrall are allied, Ner'zhul would have the entire Horde to deal with if he launched a direct attack on the Forsaken.

[Lord Kil'jaeden]

I disagree. His forces were severely crippled in the battle with Illidan and his minions, and Anub'arak was barely holding the line. And now that Sylvanas and Thrall are allied, Ner'zhul would have the entire Horde to deal with if he launched a direct attack on the Forsaken.

And we must remember that we are ignoring what is going on in the underground of Northrend since we had a view of some new strange creatures rising from a forgotten past when Arthas took a shortcut to the Icecrown Glacier, following Anub'arak.

This danger is not ignored by the Lich King, since Arthas saw them , so maybe before sending undead armies in other places, the Lich King needs to secure his own stronghold , and should face some problems there.

[Grt490]

And we must remember that we are ignoring what is going on in the underground of Northrend since we had a view of some new strange creatures rising from a forgotten past when Arthas took a shortcut to the Icecrown Glacier, following Anub'arak.

This danger is not ignored by the Lich King, since Arthas saw them , so maybe before sending undead armies in other places, the Lich King needs to secure his own stronghold , and should face some problems there.

That isn't as much of a threat as you would think, as Arthas and Anubarak were escaping, the tunnel system was collapsing around them, burying the only entrances and likely killing the bulk of the Faceless ones.

Nephalim, you raise a good point, and looking back it seems that you are correct. I'm under the imprssion that Ner'Zhul has a sizable army in Northrend again, due to the massize casualities that Illidan's forces had on the way to the glacier and at the final battle, which would fill his ranks with Undead the are stronger and more powerful than the ones he had before the invasion.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Didn't the last level of the orc campaign (RoC) require some kind of soul gem to capture Grom? If you could capture a soul, it's kinda tangible. *shrugs* ... though it's not a power source...

It was called a soul gem, true. But unlike the soulstones of Diablo this soul gem seemed to capture Grom's body as well. It was never terribly clear to me though.

"You'll have to do better than that, little brother!"

[g00d4n0thing]

Well...if you look at WoW website, and then at the races...in the horde, it's Orcs, Tauren, Trolls, and UNDEAD...

Until they change that, I'm not worried..