Vengeance for the Alliance

[pbot]

One of the reasons that I really like the Blood Elves is that they are a race/units that are created as a response to the Undead. I like that, it really carries over well. We really should've heard more units and/or races in WCIII that were all about taking revenge on the Undead. The image of an enraged blood mage retaliating against the loss of his homeland by flamestriking ghouls is a powerful one. There should've been a hell of a lot more angry units/people.

[Kingcrazygenius]

I'd say the dark ranger was pretty pissed off.

[A-Thousand-Lies]

The Blood Elves seem to be the popular ones as they are "the rebels". Everyone just loves the vengeful royal stereotype.

[Romanov77]

If only they would have chosen the RIGHT ally for their revenge...

[Kingcrazygenius]

Who else would they have chosen? Wrong they may be, but they feel it is the Alliance's fault they are in this position. Furthermore there was that near-genocide with Garithos. I don't know about you but I would be hard-pressed to trust any humans after that. Plus the Naga also suffered magic addiction as well as a common ansestry. There was really no alternative.

[A-Thousand-Lies]

Don't forget that Vashj is part of the Naga. How could you not ally with that sexy snake-like beast?

[Kingcrazygenius]

Step off ATL, she's mine. :y-evil:

[Romanov77]

Who else would they have chosen? Wrong they may be, but they feel it is the Alliance's fault they are in this position. Furthermore there was that near-genocide with Garithos. I don't know about you but I would be hard-pressed to trust any humans after that. Plus the Naga also suffered magic addiction as well as a common ansestry. There was really no alternative.

I think Kael and Blood elves should have been wise enough to understand that it wasnt the Alliance that wanted them dead, but Garithos!

They fought alongside humans and Dwarfs hundreds of battles afterall!

[Kingcrazygenius]

You're looking at it from an objective viewpoint. Put yourself in their shoes and you'll have a hard time telling if its the whole alliance or just Garithos, especially with all the other humans acting all xenophobic.

[SuRReAL OrC]

Elf Blood Mage: :y-thumbsu

Jungle Troll Blood Mage: Even better! :bigclap:

[yunn]

What's a blood mage class? I thought blood mages are exclusive to blood elves only, so I can't imagine what is a Jungle Troll Blood Mage. It's like imagining there are things like Blood Elf Witch Doctors!

[Kingcrazygenius]

Blood Magi are exclusive to Blood Elves, Surreal is just a ******.

[SuRReAL OrC]

I know, I know, but it would pwn majorly!

I bee gonna burn joo mon!!! :lol:

[Holy Knight]

You're looking at it from an objective viewpoint. Put yourself in their shoes and you'll have a hard time telling if its the whole alliance or just Garithos, especially with all the other humans acting all xenophobic.

I don't know, you also hear some dwarves muttering "They don't pay us enough to work for that bastard" about Garithos. I always thought of it as being that no one else in the alliance command really knew what Garithos was like, but if they did, he would have been branded a traitor and executed. I also would have liked to see Kael kill Garithos instead of Sylvanas, but that's another topic, I guess.

[darksideslayer]

Who else would they have chosen? Wrong they may be, but they feel it is the Alliance's fault they are in this position. Furthermore there was that near-genocide with Garithos. I don't know about you but I would be hard-pressed to trust any humans after that. Plus the Naga also suffered magic addiction as well as a common ansestry. There was really no alternative.

I REALLY think Kael DID choose the ONLY option he could've choosen... The greedy, xenophobic, unreliable and sneaky humans would've killed all that was left from his people... Now, the Elves' TRUE enemies are the humans, cuz they BETRAYED the Elves and broke the Alliance, and were selfish enough to say that were the Elves who betrayed the Alliance when they joined the Naga. Only a question... How could Kael stop the Undead strike WITHOUT Vashj's help, as the humans' military help was denied for Kael to stop the Undead forces????

[SuRReAL OrC]

Surreal is just a ******.
Sior, dat am jood plune eeval!

[Reign of Kalos]

I REALLY think Kael DID choose the ONLY option he could've choosen... The greedy, xenophobic, unreliable and sneaky humans would've killed all that was left from his people... Now, the Elves' TRUE enemies are the humans, cuz they BETRAYED the Elves and broke the Alliance, and were selfish enough to say that were the Elves who betrayed the Alliance when they joined the Naga. Only a question... How could Kael stop the Undead strike WITHOUT Vashj's help, as the humans' military help was denied for Kael to stop the Undead forces????
Well if you look at it from thier point of view the naga are a hostile force. They took over Dalaran and attackd both night elves, blood elves, humans, and undead. They're just another invader to them. It gets a little suspitous when your so called allies are working with these creatures. So you warn them to break off contact. Later they violate this direct order and worked along side the naga to attack the undead and repel them. The elves obviously cannot follow commands, and are useless to the war effort. So the humans ordered thier deaths.

Not that I am in favour of this action, I firmly believe it was wrong. But it is important to know that the blood elves betrayed the humans, to a lesser extent, before the humans went overboard and sentenced them to death. You might reply that it was thier only chance, what else were they going to do? That's life. Sometimes you don't get the luxury of a good set of cards. Sometimes the only options are to do wrong in one fashion or another. Working with the naga was justifiable to me, but Garathos was looking for an excuse anyway. They just handed him one.

[deadhand13]

As said (sort of) by RoK, you have to look at the humans point of view aswell. The humans looked at the Naga as a hotile force, since they attacked humans, and elves (all kinds) alike at Dalaran you have to look at them as the 'bad guys'. From the Blood Elves point of view it was their only chance and basically for them to do 'good' (kill the undead) they had to do something 'bad' (join with Naga). Nuff said. :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap:

[Kingcrazygenius]

The fact that Garithos sent them on a suicide mission kinda kills any sympathies I have for the human side of things.

[SuRReAL OrC]

The only thing good about Garithos is his in-game model.

[pbot]

and his death.

[yunn]

and his death.
Spoken like a true Blood Elf.

[darksideslayer]

I REALLY think Kael DID choose the ONLY option he could've choosen... The greedy, xenophobic, unreliable and sneaky humans would've killed all that was left from his people... Now, the Elves' TRUE enemies are the humans, cuz they BETRAYED the Elves and broke the Alliance, and were selfish enough to say that were the Elves who betrayed the Alliance when they joined the Naga. Only a question... How could Kael stop the Undead strike WITHOUT Vashj's help, as the humans' military help was denied for Kael to stop the Undead forces????

The fact that Garithos sent them on a suicide mission kinda kills any sympathies I have for the human side of things.

That´s the main idea, KCG. Do tou understand now, RoK???

[Clicks]

I personally think it was good to include the Blood Elves as the only vengeful race. Including more spiteful stereotypes into a game with such a complex storyline could really make things borish and repetitive. In my opinion, I thought Blizzard did a great job introducing the varying attitudes of the races post-RoC. They made the new races different enough to add a completely new dimension to the game while similtaniously continuing with Warcrafts great storyline.

[Reign of Kalos]

That´s the main idea, KCG. Do tou understand now, RoK???
What do you mean? I already in my original post said clearly that it was the only option, it was in agreement already. I was just saying that the elves weren't exactly "on the level" either. They can't claim the moral high ground either. My understanding of the situation remains the same as it always has.

Garithos didn't send them on a sucide mission, he didn't even know how small or how little the force was going to be, nor did he take all that much away from the field. In a sucide mission you die. They didn't. Thus the logic behind that statement is flawed anyway.

We don't exactly know the status on the front lines either, how are we suppose to know if without the extra support an even bigger loss would have been made there? We simply don't really know enough information to say he betrayed them. We do know that people prioritise, thus perhaps the troops were in far greater need taking out the main strike force. In the end it doesn't really matter, as even with that backup he managed to end up controlled by the enemy.

But I agree, he wasn't that helpful to them, same as they weren't obedient to him. They're both in the wrong. Now, do you see?

[Kingcrazygenius]

Hmm...he tells Kael to destroy a large force of the undead, but takes away every non-elf person in the area. Either Garithos was hoping a ton of blood elves would die, or he had a huge amount of faith in Kael and his followers. Personally I don't think it is the latter.

Explain how allying with the 'enemy' to obey Garithos' orders to destroy the undead force under Dalvengyr puts Kael on low moral ground? Would you do differently in Kael's position, putting not only yourself but many of your people in far greater risk in order to keep a leader that hates you satisfied? Kael had loyalty to Garithos, but he has greater loyalty to his Blood Elves.

[Reign of Kalos]

Hmm...he tells Kael to destroy a large force of the undead, but takes away every non-elf person in the area. Either Garithos was hoping a ton of blood elves would die, or he had a huge amount of faith in Kael and his followers. Personally I don't think it is the latter.

Explain how allying with the 'enemy' to obey Garithos' orders to destroy the undead force under Dalvengyr puts Kael on low moral ground? Would you do differently in Kael's position, putting not only yourself but many of your people in far greater risk in order to keep a leader that hates you satisfied? Kael had loyalty to Garithos, but he has greater loyalty to his Blood Elves.
And how exactly would Garithos be aware of the size of the enemy strikeforce? You think he and Dalvengyr sat down for a chat and planned the strategic destruction of the blood elves for what? If the blood elves fell out there Dalaran would be in dire danger. Even Garithos isn't that stupid to see that he can throw away some of the most important territory in the region for wiping out another race that was actually aiding them. True he wouldn't have cared if it was fought down to a stalemate, or if there would be heavy elf losses, but he doesn't want an undead army on the loose down one of the only human cities still in alliance control.

The broken command allowed his prejudice to hide under a mask of justice was to wait until the blood elves proved thier disloyalty. Thus it was down to Kael to slip up. By allying with the naga he gave good reason to be branded as a traitor, as such were the nation of Alterac when they allied with the Horde to insure thier continued existence. Was that different from what the blood elves did, to disobey the Alliance in exchance for aid? I seem to recall a command expressly forbidding any such peaceful meetings.Where I come from it is consided disrepectful and treacherous to desobey such commands. While it may have been the only option then, he should have known he was signing his own death warrent. There was no good and moral way out, just to die in one fashion or another, bar obeying your orders to the death and die with honour.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Garithos branding it trechery and it actually being a betrayal are two different things. Aside from disobeying Garithos' bigotry-smothered words Kael did nothing to turn against the Alliance. It isn't as if the Naga said "we'll help you, but then you have to help us kill all the humans". The fact that you bring up that Garithos was waiting for a chance to get rid of him does little to make him look better.

I still fail to see how Kael was immoral in any way.

[Reign of Kalos]

Garithos branding it trechery and it actually being a betrayal are two different things. Aside from disobeying Garithos' bigotry-smothered words Kael did nothing to turn against the Alliance. It isn't as if the Naga said "we'll help you, but then you have to help us kill all the humans". The fact that you bring up that Garithos was waiting for a chance to get rid of him does little to make him look better.

I still fail to see how Kael was immoral in any way.
I'm not trying to make him look good, I'm getting at that he was literally handed the opportunity on a silver platter, Kael practically bent over backwards to encourage Garithos to go ahead by providing him with reason and legitimacy. As for being betrayal, I go back to my example of Alterac. They tried to work with both sides, and were killed by the other humans when the truth was brought forwards. Garithos actually gave Kael a chance, a warning if you will, and this was not heeded. What else would you have had Garithos do with a vertually useless army that can't even obey the most simple instructions? Most commanders would have at the very least imprisoned them, and a few, such as himself, would execute traitors.

You argue that they were not, what is your difinition of the word? For me disobedience of a senior officer's instructions counts as a betrayal of authority.

[Kingcrazygenius]

So the right thing for Kael to do was to take on that entire undead force alone and get his people slaughtered? Once the enormity of the situation became apparent Kael really didn't have much in the way of options, either death or disobeidiance. Considering his obligations towards his people are greater than for other people I feel he was fully in the right to do what he did.

[Reign of Kalos]

So the right thing for Kael to do was to take on that entire undead force alone and get his people slaughtered? Once the enormity of the situation became apparent Kael really didn't have much in the way of options, either death or disobeidiance. Considering his obligations towards his people are greater than for other people I feel he was fully in the right to do what he did.
I concur. It was the right choice to make. There was the hope that Garithos would only kill the 'leaders of the rebellion', in that he would only kill those who were actually choosing the options and leading the others. It was a gamble either way, the naga reinforcements might not have made that much difference in the battle anyway. Or, as happened, the whole group may be sentenced to death.

There were a few other ideas, such as keeping the undead at bay by playing it defensively, until outsider intervention arrived. After Garithos put so much effort into fighting to hold the other front, it is doubtful that he would let the other collapse and lose the city anyway.

Besides you've just ran from your last point. Was it not a betrayal?

[Kingcrazygenius]

They had no resources and only a few standing troops. Playing defensively wasn't really going to work.

My theory is that Garithos had a much more substantial defensive force waiting to fight off the undead when Kael failed, but that's just a theory.

And I didn't see that last part. Of course it wasn't a betrayal. At most it was disobeidiance. Betrayal would have been if Kael and his blood elves just ran away, or turned against the rest of the Alliance. Kael made no moves against the Alliance until after they were already imprisoned, and even then they were only trying to escape.

[Reign of Kalos]

They had no resources and only a few standing troops. Playing defensively wasn't really going to work.

My theory is that Garithos had a much more substantial defensive force waiting to fight off the undead when Kael failed, but that's just a theory.

And I didn't see that last part. Of course it wasn't a betrayal. At most it was disobeidiance. Betrayal would have been if Kael and his blood elves just ran away, or turned against the rest of the Alliance. Kael made no moves against the Alliance until after they were already imprisoned, and even then they were only trying to escape.
So helping a known enemy of your allies is not a betrayal of those allies? Especially when thier true agenda is hidden from sight? So you have no problem with Alterac's actions during the second war, they were all buddy-buddy with both sides too. That was seen as a betrayal, and war was waged against Alterac by it's human allies.

Resources and the standing troops on the map are game dynamics only, we don't know the true numbers, only vague accounts. What good is gold in a war anyway? And that island wasn't barren of wood. Either Kael is a strategic idiot, or he had some supplies on that island. I may not think very highly of him, but an idiot? I doubt it.

And I think we've established that at the very least it was disobedience. It was certainly a breach of a direct order.

[Kingcrazygenius]

They weren't helping their known enemy, they were being helped. The Naga sided with them, not the other way around.

And it wasn't just a game dynamic. They were sorely outnumbered either way, with virtually no chance at victory.

[Reign of Kalos]

They weren't helping their known enemy, they were being helped. The Naga sided with them, not the other way around.

And it wasn't just a game dynamic. They were sorely outnumbered either way, with virtually no chance at victory.
Were they really? The majority of the entire race under the command of the one man, in one place. That must have been one HUGE undead army to have so easily outnumbered them...

Indeed they did. But Kael could have easily warned them not to aid them in fear of the repurcussions. Insisted that they stayed away for thier own good.

This is going a little of topic though. When I started my commenting I meerly intended to show that the elves weren't exactly being the pure and honest good guys, and more so they had a hand in thier own undoing.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Hmm...I suppose he could have told them to do their own thing. It's kinda hard to really think of it all in retrospect. Warcraft has a way of making every scenario other than the one pursued seem to lead to failure.

There aren't that many blood elves anyways. I think we can agree that way more than half of all the High Elves in existance were killed, not that there were that many High Elves to begin with. I'm not going to try to figure out how many blood elves there are though, but I'm pretty sure that undead outnumber just about anything. Though I'm not sure if all the Blood Elves were there in that place at the time, there were probably other groups that got rounded up into the prisons.

[SuRReAL OrC]

I bet there are other people who,like me, are enjoying this little debate. Go on.....

[Reign of Kalos]

I bet there are other people who,like me, are enjoying this little debate. Go on.....
I am too. Back in the day the single player forum was filled with such debates, it was exciting, and tense to watch as people countered each others points with elegance and grace. The art of winning an arguement is seperating the certain from the uncertain, and using the information to the advantage of your point. When you get into a skilled debate such as this one, (I like to think I have some skill in the field, and in the past king has certainly proven his) it is a battle of points and count-points. Fantastic to watch, and even better to argue yourself. Sadly some of our past champions of this art have passed on.

Anyway, it's almost ran out of steam. We've argued the point to a fine line, where one can see the logical steps, and now almost all truth is left in our wake. The arguement may be soming to a close soon, though it might be too early to say. The two have come to a mutual agreement on most points, and left little to debate around.

Ok, Prince Kael was thier leader, I'm certain that the majority of Blood Elves would have most certainly been in the vacinity of thier leader. I would say serveral hundred were there. But not more than eight hundred certainly. A small to medium size. Certainly able to put up a good battle when pressed I would think.

[darksideslayer]

OK, guys. I think I've come with a new fact that can "lighten up" this enjoyable discussion. Last Friday, I was playing the Undead Campaign, in a Scenario (4th or 5th, not sure), and I simply discovered that it wasn't Garithos' fault that all of this happened... I discovered that Garithos was being kinda mind-controlled by a dreadlord called Detheroc, who have two brothers, Balnazzar and Varamithras (Not sure if these names are right). So, you can asy that Garithos was intended (not at his own will) to really kill the Blood Elves, one way or another, by the orders of Detheroc. So, I think it was neither Kael nor Garithos the bad guys in all this... and that Kael didn't betrayed the Alliance, because he WASN'T dealing with the Alliance at all!!! It was Detheroc's plot to shatter the already failing Alliance...

[Kingcrazygenius]

...

I had never even thought of that possibility, much less considered it. Good show!

What do you think boys? Perhaps Garithos was already being manipulated by the dreadlords even back then, if not under total control?

[Reign of Kalos]

Highly possible indeed! This is a good theory. It would actualy explain why he was so eager to destroy them, even though they were a good potential weapon to use on the enemy. It seems that Garithos was thinking with more than just prejudice and racism. It would also allows him to look like less of an idiot and explain how a seemingly foolish leader managed to get that kind of a job.

[darksideslayer]

Highly possible indeed! This is a good theory. It would actualy explain why he was so eager to destroy them, even though they were a good potential weapon to use on the enemy. It seems that Garithos was thinking with more than just prejudice and racism. It would also allows him to look like less of an idiot and explain how a seemingly foolish leader managed to get that kind of a job.

Hey, RoK: I think Garithos wasn't thinking at all. I think Garithos' prejudice against the Blood Elves was just a (Detheroc's) plan to slightly remove a potential recovering enemy of the Scourge (and the Legion) that the Blood Elves might have become...

[Kingcrazygenius]

No, it is probably common among humans to be weary of non-humans, but Garithos' blatant prejudice is not. His natural distrust of the mysterious elves was probably amplified, and his inhibitions to act on his thoughts removed.

It would also be nice to see another human hero as not a total jerkass.

[Reign of Kalos]

No, it is probably common among humans to be weary of non-humans, but Garithos' blatant prejudice is not. His natural distrust of the mysterious elves was probably amplified, and his inhibitions to act on his thoughts removed.

It would also be nice to see another human hero as not a total jerkass.
Yeah. To take total control over all of his funtions would be noticed, the dreadlord's behavour while in control of thier puppet would be noticed too easily. Better let him act on as normal to avoid suspition, but to, as king put it well, amplify the natural distrust and turn it towards wanting the unpure nonhumans to perish. Total possession can occur, but it's pretty damn have to just take up someone's entire life and carry on as if you were them without anybody catching on. Almost certainly there were at least some elements of Gaithos' personality in there as well to avoid being seen out of character.

[darksideslayer]

Yeah. To take total control over all of his funtions would be noticed, the dreadlord's behavour while in control of thier puppet would be noticed too easily. Better let him act on as normal to avoid suspition, but to, as king put it well, amplify the natural distrust and turn it towards wanting the unpure nonhumans to perish. Total possession can occur, but it's pretty damn have to just take up someone's entire life and carry on as if you were them without anybody catching on. Almost certainly there were at least some elements of Gaithos' personality in there as well to avoid being seen out of character.

Hmmm... I think this hugely makes sense... The dreadlords are very treacherous, even alongside themselves - that's why Detheroc's brother, Varamithras betrayed him after being defeated by Sylvanas and helped her invade his and Garithos' base, who clearly states his alleigiance (is this correctly written??) to Detheroc. (I don't know how this Scenario ends, because I'm kinda busy these days, and I have no time to play it, but if you guys know it ends, I would be welcome to know, I don't fear spoilers, but if you don't wanna spoil the other people who may be reading this thread, you can send me a private message)

[WarDragon]

Now that is a highly intriguing possibility! I'd never even considered that Garithos might already be under the Dreadlord's control by that point; it would nicely explain why he was willing to throw away the Blood Elves in a futile defense of Dalaran, as well as why he was so eager to convert his predjudices into outright genocide. Plus, it's perfectly in character for a Dreadlord to play on existing bigotries and divisions amongst their enemies, just as Balnazzar manipulates the Scarlet Crusade. This bears much thinking on.

Well done, Slayer!

[yunn]

dsslayer: good job. praise from KCG is difficult to come by. unless you have titties.

seriously, ur theory fits in perfectly with the nathrezim's playing style. but garithos was still racist to begin with, nonetheless.

[Kingcrazygenius]

I like flat girls too, it's all good:)

[Diskordjah]

then let us take this one step further: it wasnt Detherocs plot to shatter the alliance: it was Kil'jaedens plot to drive the blood elves into the arms of Illidan, and therefore the legion. dreadlords serve Kil'jaeden after all, and Killy did get the final benefit of Garithos stupidity in the form of additional servants to send against the Throne.

however, even though the dreadlords serve Killy, they seemed to have been out of touch with each other (even SYlvanas knew about Archies defeat before them). also, the plot would seem to be more advanced than Kil'jaeden usually goes for (Killy: corrupt orcs -> destroy azeroth. create lich king -> destroy azeroth. this is more: order detheroc -> splinter resistance -> aid faction through naga -> bring them to outland -> hook them up with pawn -> let pawn send them to icy graves). a plot more styled to the Lich King, actually.

[darksideslayer]

Now that is a highly intriguing possibility! I'd never even considered that Garithos might already be under the Dreadlord's control by that point; it would nicely explain why he was willing to throw away the Blood Elves in a futile defense of Dalaran, as well as why he was so eager to convert his predjudices into outright genocide. Plus, it's perfectly in character for a Dreadlord to play on existing bigotries and divisions amongst their enemies, just as Balnazzar manipulates the Scarlet Crusade. This bears much thinking on.

Well done, Slayer!


dsslayer: good job. praise from KCG is difficult to come by. unless you have titties.

seriously, ur theory fits in perfectly with the nathrezim's playing style. but garithos was still racist to begin with, nonetheless.

Thanks, guys!

then let us take this one step further: it wasnt Detherocs plot to shatter the alliance: it was Kil'jaedens plot to drive the blood elves into the arms of Illidan, and therefore the legion. dreadlords serve Kil'jaeden after all, and Killy did get the final benefit of Garithos stupidity in the form of additional servants to send against the Throne.

however, even though the dreadlords serve Killy, they seemed to have been out of touch with each other (even SYlvanas knew about Archies defeat before them). also, the plot would seem to be more advanced than Kil'jaeden usually goes for (Killy: corrupt orcs -> destroy azeroth. create lich king -> destroy azeroth. this is more: order detheroc -> splinter resistance -> aid faction through naga -> bring them to outland -> hook them up with pawn -> let pawn send them to icy graves). a plot more styled to the Lich King, actually.

But, by doing so, Kil´Jaeden would get rid of one more enemy that could stand against a probable new invasion of the Legion...

[Kingcrazygenius]

Well Disko...it is possible that Kil'jaeden planned for the dreadlords to do such a thing in advance, though considering they were totally unaware of current events leaves me to believe that Kil'jaeden has had no recent contact (recent being around the time of TFT). Plus there were several events such as Illidan's freedom that I highly doubt even Kil'jaeden had planned for.

Manipulation of the enemy was more than likely soley the plan of the Detheroc and his brothers. After all they've been doing that exact thing to planets since before Sargaras showed up.