In the Age of Chaos, two factions....

[Romanov77]

If anyone has ever played Warcraft1, he should know that I took the thread's name from the Intro, were it was played by Roper himself.

The point of thread is this: Is anyone else feeling nostalgic in these times?

I confess that one of the "guilty" pleasures im having in these days is inserting my War2 B.net edition in the cd drive and refreshing my memories.

That Great Intro...the menu's music, the Metzen artworks on the main menu (High elf Archer vs Troll Axethrower).

I also enjoy listening to the mission briefiegs, played by Bill Roper... hearing some of them almost makes me cry...

And of course, the cinematics: Low on visual quality, but still awesome.
Not to mention the soundtrack.

I confess that I loved the simplicity of that game, the old theme Evil vs Good.
The mighty armies of the Alliance clashing with honour aganist the evil Horde... Great uncorruptable heroes, great battles... that was what made me love this game.

All this is slowly gone with Warcraft3 and seems disappeared with WoW.

Look what our game has became. Dozen of pathetic "Stand alone" factions, betrayers after betrayers, Heroes that for power do not hesitate to doom their people...
Looks like the real world. And this DISGUST me :g sad:

Sorry this rant, but I had to tell this to someone.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Heh, in Warcraft it is the villains who stand for their beliefs in the face of certain death.

[Purplebeard]

The classic good vs evil-scenario isn't enough these days. Nowadays storylines have to be as complex as possible, with as many factions as possible who all think they are doing the right thing.
It's not just warcraft, all newer games seem overly flashy and complex, and the great games of the past are long forgotten.

Now, people are eagerly awaiting 'prince of persia 2' as they call it, while the REAL prince of persia 2 probably was infinitely better. People often refer to diablo 2 as diablo, completing ignoring the first game that was also brilliant.

Simplicity seems to be a thing of the past, as people seem to ignore the existence and greatness of the older games. Who could forget the humour of monkey island 1 and 2, or the brilliant concept of the old platform games?

Still, the warcraft storyline is by no means deteriorating. I for one liked the non-evil orcs and the human prince that was transformed into a nefarious being.

[yunn]

I thought it's the stereotype-breaking storylines which are actually intriguing. You know, with the orcs being noble and honourable and all, as opposed to the stereotype barbaric, brutal savages. There are others mentioned before, but it slipped my mind.

[Romanov77]

It is all this corruption that obsess be!

It seems that REAL heroes (The ones that CANT be corrupted) doesnt exist anymore...

And as I already said, its getting way too much close to reality!
Even "Lord of the Rings" which should be considered the king of the fantasy genre, afterall was Good vs Evil... Sure, there are various factions (Rohan, Gondor, Isengard, Mordor, Elves, the Haradrim...etc) but they all merge in 2 main opposite factions, just like Warcraft2...

[Kingcrazygenius]

I actually kinda prefer Diablo to Diablo II, unfortunately no one ever wants to play Diablo.

And if you are looking for an honorable human Romanov, perhaps Jaina or the boy King of Stormwind will have to suffice.

Or perhaps you'll have to buy WoW and create a warrior in Lothar's image, or a Paladin in Uther's.

[WarDragon]

You want real heroes? What about Jaina? Tyrande? Furion? Thrall? Uther? They all seem fairly incorruptible to me; even Sylvanas only turned evil after she was warped by unbreakable will of Ner'Zhul.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Uther is dead, and Tyrande and Malfurion let a horrifically powerful criminal go.

However I am all for the great and incorruptable Jaina, and I guess Thrall and Cairne are good too.

[Purplebeard]

Romanov still has a point: Sylvanas turned evil, Illidan turned evil, Arthas turned evil, Grom turned evil (even though he salvaged himself later), Kael kinda turned evil (he did follow Illidan), Medivh turned evil, Sargeras turned evil, Deathwing turned evil...

[Romanov77]

You guys are right...I forgot the Ne heroes, as well as Thrall and Cairne...
I was referring to the human heroes...

Jaina...I never saw her as a hero (an army leader), even if im forced to admit that now, after his father's death, she's the Alliance true hero.
I cant see her get corrupted. She's way too good, plus hasnt that "lust for power" the other fools had.

The new King of Stormwind...there werent rumors of Deathwing, or another black dragon hiding in his court as prestor? The child willl be rised with a black dragon as prestor...
BAD influence, imo...

[Kingcrazygenius]

I suppose now isn't the best time to tell you all that I'm related to the Prestors by marriage...

[Romanov77]

I suppose now isn't the best time to tell you all that I'm related to the Prestors by marriage...

What do you mean?? :y-candle:

[Kingcrazygenius]

Arthas' sister didn't marry Lord Prestor, but my sister did.

[pbot]

You know Romanov, I will say one thing, I've always felt for a very long time, that the Blizzard storyline always seems to focus more on the corruptible human hero. They never seem to focus on the "just" human hero, like Jaina. Not sure why. I think, that there's a whole campaign just waiting to be made about Jaina leaving Lordaeron, and moreover, about Jaina's reactions to leaving her homeland, and her reactions to discovering Arthas and just how badly he destroyed the Alliance. We can also find out just how tough Jaina really is, and how she still maintained strength in the face of almost total despair. But no, Blizzard wants their humans strong and corruptible, or weak and petty.

And by the way, I just LOVE the first level of WCIII, with Arthas and Uther. Its really like getting a glimpse into the Warcraft Universe when the humans and their lands were at their best. I just loved running through the villages, hearing townspeoples reactions to Arthas, and just generally being exposed to a different side of the WC universe.

Oh, and just for you,

Vengeance the Alliance! :y-evil:

[Romanov77]

And by the way, I just LOVE the first level of WCIII, with Arthas and Uther. Its really like getting a glimpse into the Warcraft Universe when the humans and their lands were at their best. I just loved running through the villages, hearing townspeoples reactions to Arthas, and just generally being exposed to a different side of the WC universe.


Same here comrade! Walking around the once great Lordaeron has been a great experience! I was so happy of Warcraft3' storyline at start!!

Then grim things started to happen... :g-sick:

[Aj Windshadow]

Ditto, I loved the begining but there is night after every day and day after every night....

[SummonLemming]

I like complexity. Perhaps that is why I am compelled to the Legacy of Kain Series. And why I use such big, hard words. But I for one have been feeling nostalgic, but not for Warcraft- for..

MEGAMAN!!!!!

[Holy Knight]

You know Romanov, I will say one thing, I've always felt for a very long time, that the Blizzard storyline always seems to focus more on the corruptible human hero. They never seem to focus on the "just" human hero, like Jaina.

And by the way, I just LOVE the first level of WCIII, with Arthas and Uther. Its really like getting a glimpse into the Warcraft Universe when the humans and their lands were at their best. I just loved running through the villages, hearing townspeoples reactions to Arthas, and just generally being exposed to a different side of the WC universe.


Same here comrade! Walking around the once great Lordaeron has been a great experience! I was so happy of Warcraft3' storyline at start!!

I agree with all of this, too. I remember being so thrilled that the main human hero was a paladin--fighting alongside Uther, no less--then he slowly turned into a despicable monster, and then the game was about killing all the paladins who were left. *sigh*... I still love war3, of course, but I would like to see some more heroes that don't either die or turn evil. I guess it's up to us, now... if you do ever join WoW, you can count on at least one paladin ally!

--HK

Edit:

Now, people are eagerly awaiting 'prince of persia 2' as they call it, while the REAL prince of persia 2 probably was infinitely better.
Actually, I disagree. From trailers and the demo, it seems like The Warrior Within (the actual title, not just Prince of Persia 2) is going to continue the cool traps, time-altering abilities, and acrobatics of Sands of Time, while adding an even cooler combat system. I have high hopes for this game. That being said, however, I still don't understand why they changed the voice actor. Yuri Lowenthal really made the prince come alive, and they should have kept him for the sequel.

[Diskordjah]

curiously enough, I know a girl thats descended from the persian royalties.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Curiously enough, I would like if you introduced us

[Purplebeard]

Actually, I disagree. From trailers and the demo, it seems like The Warrior Within (the actual title, not just Prince of Persia 2) is going to continue the cool traps, time-altering abilities, and acrobatics of Sands of Time, while adding an even cooler combat system. I have high hopes for this game. That being said, however, I still don't understand why they changed the voice actor. Yuri Lowenthal really made the prince come alive, and they should have kept him for the sequel.
But prince of persia 2 was pure genius, just like the first one. Though I do agree that the new game should be an overall better game, it won't be as good as the first games were (for their time). Calling the new game prince of persia 2 is an insult to the creators of the games (even though they kind of deserve it by making prince of persia 3d).

[Nitara]

Wait wait wait, let me get this straight.

You're pissed off at how Warcraft is NOT like everything else and just a trite and meaningless rehash of all the stuff we've seen a million times before?

This is a strange forum.

[Romanov77]

Wait wait wait, let me get this straight.

You're pissed off at how Warcraft is NOT like everything else and just a trite and meaningless rehash of all the stuff we've seen a million times before?

This is a strange forum.

You dont got the point, youngling.

I bet you never saw Warcraft2.

[Reign of Kalos]

Wait wait wait, let me get this straight.

You're pissed off at how Warcraft is NOT like everything else and just a trite and meaningless rehash of all the stuff we've seen a million times before?

This is a strange forum.
It's not exactly wrong to crave for the old days when some people had a little honour and degnity. Now it seems like a pack of wolves fighting over a carcass...

[Nitara]

Hm. My never being on this forum before makes you assume I'm new to the series? I didn't realize this particular forum was so essential to the warcraft experience.

To Reign of Kalos, the honorable and dignified aren't extinct in the latest instalments, they're just harder to come by. And when every human hero is just another dimensionless, altruistic do-gooder, it would tend to make those qualities less interesting. Every hero in Warcraft 1, 2, and BDP are all tired archetypes.

So here's MY point, Romanov, since you seem to have missed it. I LIKE conflicted, interesting, gray-area characters, and if you don't, there's plenty of other games out there that just have variations on the same thing, so you can always go play them if you get bored with Warcraft trying to be different.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Plus there are the Maiev and Sylvanas wet t-shirt contests.

[TechnoHamster]

I don't know what your talking about. I honestly don't like the inhuman, distant tale of valiant men protecting house wives and children from the ugly mindless monsters of far away lands.

[Holy Knight]

But prince of persia 2 was pure genius, just like the first one. Though I do agree that the new game should be an overall better game, it won't be as good as the first games were (for their time). Calling the new game prince of persia 2 is an insult to the creators of the games (even though they kind of deserve it by making prince of persia 3d).
Hmm, I think it's a compliment, rather than an insult. It's like saying: "Hey, this game was so great for its time that we want to revamp it and do a contemporary take on it." The only way I'd say it would insult the original creators of the game would be if it sucked (like how "Batman and Robin" is definitely an insult to Bob Kane, DC comics in general, Batman fans everywhere, comic book fans as a whole, anyone who enjoys fiction, anyone who paid to see it, anyone who saw it for free, and by extension everyone in the universe). But Sands of Time certianly didn't suck, it was an excellent game, and it looks like Warrior Within is going to be a great game too.

To Reign of Kalos, the honorable and dignified aren't extinct in the latest instalments, they're just harder to come by. And when every human hero is just another dimensionless, altruistic do-gooder, it would tend to make those qualities less interesting. Every hero in Warcraft 1, 2, and BDP are all tired archetypes.

So here's MY point, Romanov, since you seem to have missed it. I LIKE conflicted, interesting, gray-area characters, and if you don't, there's plenty of other games out there that just have variations on the same thing, so you can always go play them if you get bored with Warcraft trying to be different.
It's a mistake to think that being altruistic equals being dimensionless. In the first place, people and characters are defined by more than just their moral outlooks. Secondly, even in terms of being a do-gooder, you can still face interesting situations and dilemmas. For example, in Arthurian legend, Sir Bors sees a woman being dragged off against her will and is about to go rescue her, when he sees his brother Sir Lionel being attacked by and losing to a group of brigands. He faces the dilemma of having to choose which to save, being bound by morality to help both of them, but unable to do so. He saves the woman, and rushes back to find his brother, who--while actually having survived--is so angry that Bors did not come to his aid that he calls him a traitor and tries to kill him. Sir Bors was always an honorable do-gooder, but he still had to face a difficult (and interesting for the reader) choice, with less than pleasant consequences. Thirdly, it's getting to the point where the whole "heroes must either die or be corrupted and become arch-villains" is the REAL cliche in Blizzard games.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Well...with a hero their eventual fate has to be either death as a hero or corruption. I mean they can't just live forever as a hero. Though Warcraft III did see a large influx of corruption. Arthas, Sylvanas, Maiev, Kael...yeah four is a bit much. I won't list Illidan because he was never a heroic person to begin with.

[Romanov77]

So here's MY point, Romanov, since you seem to have missed it. I LIKE conflicted, interesting, gray-area characters, and if you don't, there's plenty of other games out there that just have variations on the same thing, so you can always go play them if you get bored with Warcraft trying to be different.

Of course I dont like variation on the same thing...and in fact, Warcraft2 was different from any other game I ever played, otherwise I wouldnt be here...

I just miss the honour and dignity that Kalos mentioned in the post above.

[Aj Windshadow]

Well, come on, it wasn't Arthas' fault alone.Uther didn't know the truth about the plague, Arthas' wasn't able to convince him, in the short time they had things really messed up...
If you remember Arthas almost was about to be overcome by the huge armies of the undead.It was his fear to be defeated as the son of the King of Lordaeron, his zeal, his confidence to win against all odds that led him to vengence and finally corruption.

[Kingcrazygenius]

OR he was just a spoiled brat who didn't like the fact that he wasn't instantly winning and being a big hero like everyone else.

[Romanov77]

OR he was just a spoiled brat who didn't like the fact that he wasn't instantly winning and being a big hero like everyone else.

Exactly what I think. The brat thought he was better than anyone.

[Reign of Kalos]

Exactly what I think. The brat thought he was better than anyone.
Too right. What confirmed it for me is what he tried to do to Uther. How dare that little upstart even contemplate attempting to ruin the career of one of the last great heros of the second war? Way out of line, that title should have been Uther's for life, no single individual should have the power to take that away from him after all he had done for his people.

[Kingcrazygenius]

If I recall correctly The Silver Hand is not the property of any one nation, but rather it is a clegical (sp) body which has its ties strongest to Lordaeron. Arthas didn't ban him from the Silver Hand, because he technically couldn't. However he did use the authority he pretended to have to basically say "you can't hang out with Lordaeron anymore"

[Romanov77]

Arthas was still an apprendice in the Silver Hand. His "power" derived just from his bloodline...

If I remember well, he banished the entire Silver Hand order...

[Reign of Kalos]

If I recall correctly The Silver Hand is not the property of any one nation, but rather it is a clegical (sp) body which has its ties strongest to Lordaeron. Arthas didn't ban him from the Silver Hand, because he technically couldn't. However he did use the authority he pretended to have to basically say "you can't hang out with Lordaeron anymore"
You are indeed correct. Thus he was doubly moronic. He didn't even have the right, and even if he did almost everyone else would oppose the choice to disband them. Why disband one of humanities' greatest assets? Pride, stupidity, and glorifying one's self that's what. No good or noble Prince at heart would have tried this, the effect to the security of his nation would be damning. There's no real point to doing so on the big picture. Arthas was looking out for himself by removing his superior (Or an attempt to) from his power, demolishing barriers who would stand up to him.

[Kingcrazygenius]

If I remember well, he banished the entire Silver Hand order...

Hmm...

This entire city must be purged.

(Something to the effect of) How could you even consider that?!

Damnit Uther! I order you to purge that city!

You're not my king yet boy, nor would I follow that order if you were.

Then I must consider this an act of treason.

Treason!? Have you gone mad Arthas?

Have I Uther? By my right of succession and some other bull**** I hereby suspend you and your Paladins from service. Those who wish to save this land come with me, the rest of you...get out of my sight.

Suspention from service yes, but he didn't officially banish them, just told them to go away.

[Romanov77]

Basically he ordered the "traitors" to leave Lordaron...

[Aj Windshadow]

Well, harsh desicions they were...but in harsh times too.He knew that if he didnt stop them now they will overrun lordaeron with zombies...
He thought, perhaps, by the word of treason and stuff he could curb Uther thats where his arrogance and pride stepped in and led him to the cursed path....

[quetzalcoatl5]

Keep in mind, that the Lich King chose Arthas because he was moral ambiguous. Perfectly split between good and evil. In those cases, one would assume that every choice was for good, even if they were actually evil in nature, as was the case for Arthas.

[Nitara]

It's a mistake to think that being altruistic equals being dimensionless. In the first place, people and characters are defined by more than just their moral outlooks.As a universal rule, yes, that would be false to assume, but I'm not making an assumption. These characters WERE dimensionless. Any character development has since been made after the fact, like with Uther and apparently Khadgar. I don't exactly blame the creators, all things considered. The heroes from the early games were such a sidebar that if they had tried to develop them with the resources they had, it just would've seemed like a lame attempt at doing so. Especially now with the story they've run with it looks as if this is what they had wanted to do all along. They took their old-school characters who HAD been nothing but tired archetypes and redefined them as very fleshed out characters. The most stunning examples that come to mind are Uther and Doomhammer.

But I digress. You're right about the moral dilemmas of altruistic characters, but Warcraft's old-school altruistic characters were never GIVEN these situations, as is the case with most games.

[ARandomEvilGuy]

While I feel Arthas went too far with suspending Uther and his paladin's, he probably felt he didn't have a choice. The purging of Strathome was necessary to prevent even more innocents from dying. If he hadn't, Uther might have gone so far as to try to stop Arthas from butchering the city. It was a harsh decision, but in all honesty it was the only logical action to take. Uther was blinded by his inability to reconcile what was necessary with his convictions of honour and what he felt was right. Regardless, I agree that Arthas had no right to suspend him and only alienated those who cared for him even further.

On a side note, I would argue that Jaina is a traitor to her father and to her people by helping the Orcs to invade Theramoore Isle. Not only did this result in the loss of large numbers the Alliance soldiers, but the death of the Grand Admiral of the Fleet. Also, Tyrande did betray the Watchers by attacking them out of hand to free a dangerous criminal (regardless of weather or not it saved the world in the end). And surely Blizzard emphasizes the sacrifice of the brave incorruptable heroes, such as Uther and Antoniadas, by having traitors and corruptable humans. Without light there cannot be darkness, and without darkness there cannot be light (presumably). Just realised after I'd posted sorry for rezzing.