The Lore thread (2nd ) [Archive] - The Unofficial Warcraft III Forums

Rowan Seven

17-10-04, 04:26 PM

Here's some lore from the Warcraft RPG book "Lands of Conflict".

Lord Kil'jaeden already revealed this, but Rend Blackhand, last allegedly seen as a fel orc in Outland, is alive and has declared himself Warchief of the Blackrock Clan in the Burning Steppes and seems to have an alliance of some sort with the Black Dragon Nefarion and his draconic followers. Control of Blackrock Spire is being contested between them and Ragnaros and his servants, such as fire elementals and Dark Iron Dwarves.

The Gurubashi Jungle Trolls had a great civilization in ancient times that eventually fell apart. They might've even been the original Jungle Troll tribe before the split into warring tribes, but the statements in the RPG book are open to interpretation. There are still Gurubashi Jungle Trolls in Stranglethorn Vale, but their numbers aren't as great as they once were.

Dwarven structures bearing the name "Stonewrought" were probably made by Franclorn Forgewright, a Dark Iron dwarf who sided with his clan during the War of the Three Hammers.

Kel'Thuzad is based in a necropolis called Naxxramas that floats over Stratholme. The Scarlet Crusade and forest trolls under the leadership of Thresh'jin are fighting the Scourge (and probably each other) in the Eastern Plaguelands.

Kul Tiras is still around, although with so many ships lost in the Second War and with the fleets Jaina Proudmoore and her father took over to Kalimdor Murlocs, Naga, and pirates are becoming troublesome. Currently, Admiral Tandred Proudmoore, Jaina's brother, rules Kul Tiras, but he is not considered to be "the man his father is...or was" (LoC, pg. 101) and is assisted by Captain Mishan Waycrest, his "lady friend" (LoC, pg. 101).

Quel'Thalas is such a "dead realm" (LoC, pg. 113) that even the Scourge left.

Warlord Jin'zakk rules Zul'Aman, and forest trolls worship Ula-Tek, believed to be a serpent goddess, and other "ancient deities" (LoC, pg. 115).

Dreadlords probably can fly after all.

The Caretakers are an Alliance organization that cares for and safeguards the important relics and artifacts (such as the sword Trol'Kalar) of significant families.

The Cult of the Damned is still headed by Kel'Thuzad, but because of his other duties he appoints two leaders referred to as "Next in Line" to run it. Eventually, they're slain and raised as shades (considered a place of honor among cultists), and two new "Next in Line" leaders are appointed. In the time of the Warcraft RPG, the current two "Next in Line" are Pai Stormbringer, a cheerful assassin with magical talents, and Ul'haik Hadanot, an intellectual elfin wizard who dislikes Pai so much that he's plotting to "kill her and render her body so damaged with magic that she will be unable to rise as undead" (LoC, pg. 156).

The Royal Apothecary Society is divided into three departments: Research & Development under Master Apothecary Faranell, a former male human who was friends with Jaina Proudmoore and now hates humanity; Testing under Apethocary Oni'jus, a former female half-elf who used to serve Prince Arthas as an infiltrator before he allied with the Scourge and the plague killed her; and Implantation under Apethocary Brightflame Masjenal, an undead female Ironforge dwarf with tinker abilities.

The Syndicate's major leaders are Lord Aiden Perenolde, his sorcerous daughter Lady Beve Perenolde who is contemplating killing her father so that she can become the Syndicate's new leader, and Lord Falconcrest who controls the faction in Strombrad and is planning on using it to eventually conquer the entire organization.

For more details and a general overview of the eastern lands, feel free to purchase the book yourself. :y-thumbsu

Romanov77

17-10-04, 09:32 PM

Wow! Lots of interesting stuff!

As I see, the Perenolde still sucks...

btw, Rend is the leader of Blackrock Spire...
how many times has that place burned to the ground?

Aj Windshadow

18-10-04, 02:21 AM

both Rend and Maim were in Outland.
I agree i've played that one 3 times, therefore im sure.
Also why is he called 'Warchief' I thought there can be only 1 but Cheiftans are many...

PS there are so many RPG's.. its the Blizzard way of looting fans ( luring them with more lore :g-shake: )

Lord Kil'jaeden

18-10-04, 03:19 AM

Very interesting lore informations, Rowan Seven
Thanks for sharing it.

Have you read something about the Baron Rivendare ?
As he seems to be the target of a high level quest (a quest that will appear only some time after the player will cut the head of Balnazzar), so it seems that this death knight has some importance in the scourge.

Purplebeard

18-10-04, 03:32 AM

Also why is he called 'Warchief' I thought there can be only 1 but Cheiftans are many...
The clan chieftains are often referred to as 'warchiefs', iirc.

Aj Windshadow

18-10-04, 06:17 AM

i thought Warchief is the leader of the horde, while th chieftan is the leader of the clan....i may be wrong but i dont think so.

Diskordjah

18-10-04, 06:27 AM

I agree. Warchief is the top leadership, chieftains are leaders of clans.

Purplebeard

18-10-04, 09:12 AM

Reign of Kalos

18-10-04, 09:16 AM

I know that's how we refer to them, but I think Grom was referred to as warchief by his grunts a few times. I could be wrong though.

Anyway, perhaps Rend is called warchief because he leads an entirely different faction of orcs.
A most excellent idea. Refusing to acknowledge the existence of a rival, tkaing up his title. Sounds just right in the actions for a faction opposed to Thrall. Disrespect on a major scale.

Lord Kil'jaeden

18-10-04, 04:31 PM

The position of Warchief claimed by Rend Blackhand , and the fact they are supported by the Black dragons is certainly not the main reason of Thrall being furious.

Remember that Durotan and Draka were father and mother of Thrall, and guess who murdered them both ;)

KaySeaGee

18-10-04, 04:34 PM

The plot thickens.

All this Lore Soup needs now is some pictures of the hopefully sexy Azshara.

Rowan Seven

18-10-04, 04:40 PM

Have you read something about the Baron Rivendare ?

"Lands of Conflict" has a brief mention of him. Apparently he's based in/around Stratholme and was a wealthy landowner before becoming a death knight. His task is "to round up and murder any human survivors he can find" (LoC, pg. 95).

Lord Kil'jaeden

18-10-04, 05:06 PM

Thank you for the info.

Lord Kil'jaeden

19-10-04, 12:11 PM

Some screenshot for your viewing pleasure , unfortunately no new lore is learned from them. Move directly to the next post below to learn some new lore.

Inside of the Uther's Tomb (http://www.malador.com/screenshots/screenshots.php?view=pic&id=1586).
A new statue that can be inIronforge (http://www.malador.com/malmember/maelgrim/screens/WoW/Ironforge4.jpg), it is a very impressive (http://www.wow-ra.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9478) one (3rd screenshot of the page, can't direct link).
A bit surprising, to see that there are High Elven folks (http://www.wow-ra.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9478) (3rd and 4th screenshot, can't direct link) that are part of the Dark Strand cult (worshipping and working for the Old Gods)

Some more screenshots from the Stratholme area :
Balnazzar thinks he can deal with the assault (http://webperso.easyconnect.fr/triex/albums/original/WoWScrnShot_092404_014301.jpg)
Well, maybe not, take that (http://webperso.easyconnect.fr/triex/albums/original/WoWScrnShot_092404_014341.jpg) Balnazzar !
Going (http://webperso.easyconnect.fr/triex/albums/original/WoWScrnShot_092404_021116.jpg) to assault the Baron Rivendare stronghold
Some players are busy fighting (http://webperso.easyconnect.fr/triex/albums/original/WoWScrnShot_092404_020931.jpg) their way.
It is big and has lot of legs, its is not exactly in a good shape, it is a Crypt Fiend (http://webperso.easyconnect.fr/triex/albums/original/WoWScrnShot_092404_023520.jpg)
I think this place (http://webperso.easyconnect.fr/triex/albums/original/WoWScrnShot_092404_030056.jpg) has known better days, certainly (http://webperso.easyconnect.fr/triex/albums/original/WoWScrnShot_092404_024547.jpg).
This slaughterhouse (http://webperso.easyconnect.fr/triex/albums/original/WoWScrnShot_092404_035859.jpg) is the Baron residence, populated with lots of Abominations (some are level 60 and +)
The Baron sword (http://webperso.easyconnect.fr/triex/albums/original/WoWScrnShot_092404_042352.jpg) has an interesting design
Close up (http://webperso.easyconnect.fr/triex/albums/original/WoWScrnShot_092404_054842.jpg) of the Baron
Ouch (http://webperso.easyconnect.fr/triex/albums/original/WoWScrnShot_092404_054849.jpg) , my head

Lord Kil'jaeden

19-10-04, 12:14 PM

Now, on a different tone, these screenshots are from a discussion in the Uldaman area, it contains lots of very interesting Lore.
enjoy the reading.

Part 1 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/StormSS/Uldaman/WoWScrnShot_091604_015044.jpg)
Part 2 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/StormSS/Uldaman/WoWScrnShot_091604_015049.jpg)
Part 3 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/StormSS/Uldaman/WoWScrnShot_091604_015053.jpg)
Part 4 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/StormSS/Uldaman/WoWScrnShot_091604_015059.jpg)
Part 5 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/StormSS/Uldaman/WoWScrnShot_091604_015106.jpg)
Part 6 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/StormSS/Uldaman/WoWScrnShot_091604_015113.jpg)
Part 7 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/StormSS/Uldaman/WoWScrnShot_091604_015118.jpg)
Part 8 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/StormSS/Uldaman/WoWScrnShot_091604_015123.jpg)
Part 9 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/StormSS/Uldaman/WoWScrnShot_091604_015127.jpg)
Part 10 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/StormSS/Uldaman/WoWScrnShot_091604_015133.jpg)
Part 11 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/StormSS/Uldaman/WoWScrnShot_091604_015141.jpg)
Part 12 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/StormSS/Uldaman/WoWScrnShot_091604_015146.jpg)
Part 14 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/StormSS/Uldaman/WoWScrnShot_091604_015157.jpg)
Part 15 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/StormSS/Uldaman/WoWScrnShot_091604_015203.jpg)
Part 16 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/StormSS/Uldaman/WoWScrnShot_091604_015210.jpg)
Part 17 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/StormSS/Uldaman/WoWScrnShot_091604_015215.jpg)

Diskordjah

19-10-04, 12:48 PM

http://img14.exs.cx/img14/2359/LadySylvanasWindrunner.jpg

there she is, in all her glory.

KaySeaGee

19-10-04, 12:57 PM

Have I known love before now?

Lord Kil'jaeden

19-10-04, 01:14 PM

Another view (http://www.wow-ra.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9444) of the Dark Lady

Now the question is why is she in the game ?
If i remember well, she was supposed to in Northrend on some secret mission (supposed to be revealed in a potential Northrend expansion of WoW) , leaving the Forsaken in the hand of Varimathras.

xShadowleavesx

19-10-04, 02:49 PM

I think this goes back to the "You can't trust anything the UD say" rule. My guess is she's doing something naughty she doesn't want her allies to know about.

BTW, do you know where she's supposed to be?

Mark Romaneck

19-10-04, 02:49 PM

guess it was too much for her!! Way to Go Frozen King

So Kel´Thuzand is not being overrun by the Forsaken?, good I tough he was, I dont have any facts but I had the impresion

The link finally worked, so BlackHand left a Legacy... great lets go kill him

Lord Kil'jaeden

19-10-04, 03:27 PM

Sylvanas (http://home.comcast.net/~nvg3899/WoW/WoWScrnShot_101104_212545.jpg) is in the Undercity, in her chamber, everyone can see her so that is just leading to think about the "in a secret mission in Northrend" to not being considered by Blizzard anymore
And as she is not hiding , the possiblity of her not wanting her allies to know her location is no more too.

Oh, and here is Rexxar (http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL294/1895250/5227621/69517882.jpg) (i thought they have forgotten him) he is patrolling in "Desolace (http://www.worldofwar.net/locations/kalimdor.php)"

Mark Romaneck

19-10-04, 03:43 PM

Rexxar looks very cool

then shoudnt he be with the stone Mal ogres?, maybe he is but we cant see in the pic
so he is still patrolling Kalimdor hu, good the horde may need him soon

by the way...is that Misha?

KaySeaGee

19-10-04, 03:45 PM

Rexxar has a new pelt:)

WarDragon

19-10-04, 04:39 PM

Very nice offerings all, Lord Kil. You are truly a font of knowledge. :y-thumbsu

Interesting; I hadn't expected the Titans to be so... techy. Maybe there's some truth to those Xel'Naga rumors, after all...

Sylvanas looks good, though she really does look more like an goth Night Elf than an undead High Elf at the moment; can't wait to see her final model!

As for Rexxar: holy crap, that's cool.

KaySeaGee

19-10-04, 05:26 PM

I dunno...the Xel'naga didn't seem quite as godly as the Titans. But there is no reason to assume that just because the Titans were godly beings that they didn't just teleport everywhere.

Romanov77

19-10-04, 10:17 PM

The Uther tomb.... the place hasnt been defiled, I hope...

yunn

20-10-04, 01:03 AM

Sylvanas looks good, though she really does look more like an goth Night Elf than an undead High Elf at the moment; can't wait to see her final model!Yeah, I'm used to seeing her pair of HUGE... er... bright red eyes...

Rexxar has no Batman mask? He looks like a stocky gnoll! With ears above his head and all! Don't like this Rexxar :y-annoyed

Mark Romaneck

20-10-04, 12:31 PM

without her bow she looks like an easy prey to a determined party of alliance players

Kingcrazygenius

20-10-04, 12:57 PM

If you want to walk to certain death far be it from me to try and stop you.

Mark Romaneck

20-10-04, 02:12 PM

not alone as I have previously stated, If I had an Alliance party determined to kill that biatch

then the days of the forsaken would end

Kingcrazygenius

20-10-04, 02:34 PM

Of course, because its not like important NPC's respawn or anything :g-shake:

Mark Romaneck

20-10-04, 03:07 PM

Exactly

I hadnt notice that Thrall´s assasination was the reason that Jaina was brutaly Murdered...
Whoever I did not know that on that same Raid The Horde took Down
Magni Bronzebeard, Lord of IronForge aparently the Horde divided in 2 Factions to take Down the Alliance
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-pvp&t=23827&p=1#post23827

so why didnt anyone told me about this?

Lord Kil'jaeden

20-10-04, 04:35 PM

That is great to see, the korean PVP players are really making a good job at giving a kind of scenario to their own raids.

Notice that PVP raids are no to be considered as having an influence in the storyline, one day a major leader will die, he will just respawn :)

But , it remains interesting to read those players battles being organized other than just simple PVP a la diablo.

EDit : to see some Alliance assaults against the Horde, you can click there (http://www.mrfixitonline.com/readTopic.asp?PostingId=1633193)

SuRReAL OrC

20-10-04, 04:47 PM

Rexxar looks awesome with his shaman-like hood, but Sylvanus looks almost exactly like a pic of Tyrande I saw, the only difference is the armour and skin tone. I bet that that Sylvanus is just there for quests and stuff, but in retail she will look undead. I hope. Oh, and I'm gonna piss on Uther's tomb and laugh. :lol:

WarDragon

20-10-04, 05:39 PM

No worries about Sylvanas, Surreal; many of the current hero models are mere placeholders for the final (and surely quite impressive) versions.

But don't you go dissing Uther. :y-evil:

SuRReAL OrC

20-10-04, 05:40 PM

Thank god, WD. And yes, you are gonna see a troll mage with a mowhawk pissin' on that old fogey's grave!!! :lol:

WarDragon

20-10-04, 05:43 PM

Very well. But know that Romanov77 will devote his every waking moment afterwards to ensuring that you never stay respawned for more than three seconds.

SuRReAL OrC

20-10-04, 05:47 PM

I'll get mah Funky Guild of Angry Artist Mafia Trolls to wail on his sorry pally butt.

Kingcrazygenius

20-10-04, 06:14 PM

I'll be certain to step on each and every member of that guild.

Romanov77

21-10-04, 02:51 AM

Very well. But know that Romanov77 will devote his every waking moment afterwards to ensuring that you never stay respawned for more than three seconds.

Yeah, that would be a moral duty for me... and enjoyable, may I add :lol:

If I will ever get in the game someday, probably the Tomb will be my first visit.
A pigrimage.

Kingcrazygenius

21-10-04, 02:54 AM

Killing Surreal eh?

Sounds like fun, but I'd need to think of an alliance race to be. Perhaps a female Gnome warrior. Oh man that would own!

yunn

21-10-04, 03:46 AM

Killing Surreal eh?

Sounds like fun, but I'd need to think of an alliance race to be. Perhaps a female Gnome warrior. Oh man that would own!
But how are you gonna step on each and every member of that forementioned guild? With a mechano-strider? :lol:

Aj Windshadow

21-10-04, 05:40 AM

Hey KCG why dont you make a SurReal make me undead avatar!!

Mark Romaneck

21-10-04, 11:47 AM

Im shure than Romanov is not going to be alone in his watch

Whoever im shure than you will be overruned by the horde players that wish to desecrate that tomb
Damn the Horde its getting their ass kicked by those Alliance pussies

We must kill more important leaders

Kingcrazygenius

21-10-04, 12:33 PM

First you're talking about running alliance raids against the horde, then you complain that the horde is being beaten by those 'alliance pussies'.

Just what side are you on?

Mark Romaneck

21-10-04, 02:18 PM

Im on the side of the shamanistic Horde...

Hell if they give me the chance I will betray the Undead Horde to Join the alliance against the forsaken

Kingcrazygenius

21-10-04, 02:21 PM

Traitor scum like you has no place in the Horde.

Mark Romaneck

21-10-04, 02:52 PM

traitor to who? to the spirits? to Thrall? To my Ancestors?
to none of em, i would be a traitor if I would let the undead manipulate the shamanistic Horde.

I myself will open the gates to those Alliance players, so that they may broke and destroy the Undercity

But if they dare to set foot on Kalimdor, I will give my life for the True Horde

Kingcrazygenius

21-10-04, 03:55 PM

You are a traitor to your allies. Like it or not your Warchief (who is ten times the shaman you'll ever be) has made them allies, and to go against them while you are still allies is trecherous, and the spirits will not aid one who stoops to such lows.

Mark Romaneck

21-10-04, 04:07 PM

I dont care if im a traitor then, I only followed DoomHammer anyway

But those Undeads will fall I dont care what Thrall has to say, I chose to betray them, even if it means me being chased by the Horde

Kingcrazygenius

21-10-04, 04:09 PM

And what if it means falling out of favor with the spirits? What are you going to do when all you have is a stick and a pelt?

Aj Windshadow

21-10-04, 04:57 PM

First of all Thrall only reluctantly agreed to make them allies...
If Mark can prove to thrall why he was right then no harm done.

Kingcrazygenius

21-10-04, 05:00 PM

Marks a ****ing ****** so it doesn't matter anyways.

SuRReAL OrC

21-10-04, 05:03 PM

Hahahaha!!! It would be fun to be a troll mage, hunted by a psycho guild led by KCG........When they learn that one of the members IS Surreal......with carzy results! :lol:

Kingcrazygenius

21-10-04, 05:06 PM

**** guilds, I'll send you all to the respawn area myself

SuRReAL OrC

21-10-04, 05:07 PM

I'm still gonna piss on Uther's grave and laugh. :lol:

An evil person

21-10-04, 05:12 PM

Okay...gotta add "Desecrate Uther's tomb" and "Lodge a knife in Romaneck's back" to my list of evil things to do....

SuRReAL OrC

21-10-04, 05:12 PM

Ditto. :lol:

Kingcrazygenius

21-10-04, 05:23 PM

Attacking Romaneck is an act of justice.

SuRReAL OrC

21-10-04, 05:28 PM

1337 talk abides the grammar rules more than Mark.

*Brands the words 'YOU GOT SERVED' on Mark's head*

yunn

21-10-04, 05:58 PM

Lore thread... LORE THREAD! Start a new thread if there's a need! I'd join in the RP-ing, but not on the LORE THREAD!

Lord Kil'jaeden

22-10-04, 09:35 AM

Some interesting informations (http://www.forumsx.net/showthread.php?t=25699) in that message.
Lots of possible spoiler too.

Kingcrazygenius

22-10-04, 10:52 AM

VERY interesting

Didn't know Prestor of Stormwind was a female. Is she as sexy as Lord Prestor?

An evil person

22-10-04, 11:32 AM

VERY interesting

Didn't know Prestor of Stormwind was a female. Is she as sexy as Lord Prestor?

I saw a screenshot of her some time ago...maybe on the old lore thread...

Basically,she has black hair,wears black robes(I think),and looks like pretty much every other human female.

And by the way,in light of what is said in that post...the king kidnapped by the Defias and Lady Prestor being pretty much in charge of Stormwind now thanks to that...could it be possible the Defias are "working" for the black dragons too?

Mark Romaneck

22-10-04, 12:04 PM

Then I would take the same course that the Dark Templars did, help the true Horde from the Shadows.

Hmm so DeathWing is retaking Azeroth...elusive.
The Dwarfs and Troggs... are like brothers then, amazing maybe those Titans are a little "to technical" as WarDragon stated... my theory may not be so far-fetched
The Twilight Clan and the Old Gods: hehe, this may be a coincidence but The Silver Twilight is a Cult that plans to free the Cthulhu... a inspiration to blizzard somehow?

I believe these "Silithid" are not from the Burning Leguion... they look, well, like zerg of course, but I think that the Old Gods are behind these

So this New Arch-Druid is messing up, maybe Tyrande should know smething, I mean after all she used to get all Fuzzy when Furion was around, she should know were he is

so the Syndicate is willing to give up the world for Alterac... a how many times has this mistake happened

This is all so interesting, i would like to see some of the Horde´s misteries as well

Lord Kil'jaeden

22-10-04, 12:36 PM

The problem is that there is fewer content for the Horde side in the beta version of WoW.
So very few lore can be found concerning them and the factions inside.

I guess Blizzard will not put all their cards in a free beta, they will certainly keep several secrets for the retail game.

Mark Romaneck

22-10-04, 01:43 PM

yes they will

damn I cant wait for the open beta to appear.

Lord Kil, thanks for all the info

An evil person

22-10-04, 01:53 PM

By the way,does anyone know if the Twillight's Hammer Cult is related in some way to the Twillight's Hammer orc clan of WCII?

I remember the WCII manual saying that the Orcs and Ogres of that clan were convinced that the horde was some sort of apocalyptic machine destined to cleanse all life or something like that.

Mark Romaneck

22-10-04, 02:02 PM

hmm If memory serves me well

remember Maiev´s campaing, she has to help an orc from his own ghosts
one of the Undead Orcs Clan is the Twilight one
Relevant..... maybe not

An evil person

22-10-04, 02:05 PM

hmm If memory serves me well

remember Maiev´s campaing, she has to help an orc from his own ghosts
one of the Undead Orcs Clan is the Twilight one
Relevant..... maybe not

Nah,thats related to the battle that took place there in the second war,during which the treacherous Stormreaver and Twillight's Hammer Clans fougth against the Blackrock orcs sent by Doomhammer to slaugther them all for abandonning him to find the Tomb of Sargeras.

Mark Romaneck

22-10-04, 02:20 PM

Damnit that is one of the huge contras of not have played War I and War II

An evil person

22-10-04, 02:26 PM

The skeletal battle representation is not the most accurate,tough.In that mission,the only thing the two clans pretty much did was send tons of juggernauts and destroyers at you and hope for the best.No ground troups whatsoever.So,two catapults could take care of your whole defense.

Kingcrazygenius

22-10-04, 02:28 PM

Yeah, and in Warcraft II Gul'dan died on the inside of the Tomb of Sargaras. Lots of things differed.

Lord Kil'jaeden

22-10-04, 04:03 PM

Not really adding some lore, even if for the background it can be interesting
But here are some world of warcraft screenshots, not posted yet there.

This is Mannoroth (http://img54.exs.cx/img54/6623/Mannoroth2.jpg) , actually it is a statue that the Orcs left for the memory of the freedom they gained thanks to Grom Hellscream, but on this monument there are some Mannoroth remains.
Notice the armor breach , where Grom Hellscream striked.

On this screenshot (http://img54.exs.cx/img54/7113/5Terenas.jpg), you can see the good old king Terenas. Well, actually you can just notice his blood , where his crown rolled on the floor (remember the final human CG cinematic in W3 : Reign of Chaos).
I read some time ago , that when visiting this throne room , you can hear some voices from the past, from the Arthas 'hello father' action against Terenas.

We have seen some Blood Elves in WoW , but until now i think it is the first Bloodmage (http://img54.exs.cx/img54/7913/Thalnos.jpg) with the classic outfit i see in WoW.
Unfortunately for him, he does not look very healthy. Not found the story behind him yet

Finally, what is certainly the most famous hero that came from Warcraft 3 and survived several apparent deaths :
Timmy ! (http://img29.exs.cx/img29/9214/timmy22.jpg) , i wondered if Blizzard would have put him in the game :)

SuRReAL OrC

22-10-04, 04:20 PM

Why would the orcs make the statue of Manny boy? It would make better sense if it was of Grom.

The Bloodmage.........YOU GOT MY HOPES UP!!! I thought he would be alive!!! :g cry:

As for Timmy........NOOOOOOO!!!!

Kingcrazygenius

22-10-04, 05:51 PM

WarDragon says:
Ha! Timmy's in WoW!
WarDragon says:
Just saw this link on the Lore Thread:http://img29.exs.cx/img29/9214/timmy22.jpg
Pharoh of Insanity says:
he became a ghoul again
WarDragon says:
Yep; I guess Kel'Thuzad re-reanimated him.
Pharoh of Insanity says:
well....yeah
Pharoh of Insanity says:
he's a pretty big ghoul
WarDragon says:
I'm sure they have some kind of spell to make Undead bigger.
Pharoh of Insanity says:
hmm...i wonder it it works on just parts of the undead...
WarDragon says:
Dude... I'm not sure what disturbs me more; the fact that you think about that, or the fact that I instantly knew what you meant...

SuRReAL OrC

22-10-04, 06:02 PM

|Surreal's List of Things to do in WoW:
|------------------------------------------------------------
|1.-Piss on Uther's grave and laugh
|2.-shake hands with Timmy the ghoul
|3.-kick the Mannoroth Statue
|4.-Have in depth conversation with Garona about her heritage
|5.-Hunt down Romaneck's sorry ass, and kick him to death
------------------------------------------------------------

WarDragon

22-10-04, 06:15 PM

King: somehow, that gets funnier every time I recall it!

Mark Romaneck

23-10-04, 04:49 AM

That statue is gonna get so desecrated

so we have a bloodmage... he...should eat more I think

that is Timmy the Ghoul!!, last time I checked he was a normal boy, or was it a penguin.

whatever

Aj Windshadow

23-10-04, 06:08 AM

Hey this just in, War of Ancients II is out !

Lord Kil'jaeden

23-10-04, 12:15 PM

Found the following screenshots on some message boards.

An 'Ambassador (http://img91.exs.cx/img91/6522/Ambassador.jpg)' (i assume noticing the place that he is from Ragnaros) deep in Blackrock (the last one Ambassador i saw was using a Fire elemental model, maybe at this time it was a placeholder with the real thing now)

The only explanation about this screenshot (http://img91.exs.cx/img91/5820/Grom.jpg) was 'Grom Monument', i don't know where it is and what exactly it is (a tomb ? the mark of Grom heroic last action ?)

There (http://img91.exs.cx/img91/7383/Rend-Blackhand.jpg) you can see Rend Blackhand ...well, not the best view that can be, as he is riding this drake, in his Blackrock fortress according to the post where this screenshot was, the poster had a very high level character but no more explanations.

Always in Blackrock (no indication if it is in the deep or on the surface +/- in Rend fortress), this huge thing (http://img91.exs.cx/img91/3210/TheBeast2.jpg) is considered as a dungeon boss , it is named as '|The Beast (http://img91.exs.cx/img91/2889/TheBeast.jpg)' without any other explanation.

SuRReAL OrC

24-10-04, 09:56 AM

Some pics of WoW dudes and dudettes..........

Scarlet Crusader (http://www.hallsofcreation.com/warcraft009c.html#gallery)

Undead Apothecary Dude (http://www.hallsofcreation.com/warcraft008c.html#gallery)

Defias Thief (http://www.hallsofcreation.com/warcraft008c.html#gallery)

Gnome Boots (You can make these with the Engineering Trade Skill) (http://www.hallsofcreation.com/warcraft003b.html#gallery)

Mark Romaneck

24-10-04, 01:22 PM

The Scarlet Crusader...looks spooky.

Wonder if Sons of Storm was upgraded as well

Kingcrazygenius

24-10-04, 01:24 PM

Hell yeah she's spooky! I think I'm in love...

SuRReAL OrC

24-10-04, 01:26 PM

Hell yeah she's spooky! I think I'm in love...

I'll tell Sylvanas your having thoughts about another woman...... :lol:

Kingcrazygenius

24-10-04, 01:28 PM

Neither myself nor Sylvanas are monogomous.

SuRReAL OrC

25-10-04, 02:48 PM

Updates, people?

yunn

25-10-04, 04:27 PM

Link to original post (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=479033&p=1&#post479033)

The Twin Empires
About 16,000 years ago (long before the Night Elves foolishly called down the wrath of the Burning Legion), Trolls lorded over much of Kalimdor (then a single continent). There were twin Troll Empires -- the Gurubashi Empire of the Southeastern jungles -- and the Amani Empire of the Middle Forestlands.

There were smaller tribes that lived far to the north (in the region now known as Northrend). These tribes founded a small nation known as Gundrak, but never achieved the size or prosperity of the Southern empires.

The Gurubashi and Amani Empires had little love for one another, but rarely warred against each other. At the time, their greatest common enemy was a third empire -- the civilization of Azi'Aqir. The Aqir were intelligent insectoids who ruled the lands of the far west. These clever insectoids were greatly expansionistic and icredibly evil. The Aqir were obsessed with eradicating all non-insect life from the fields of Kalimdor.

The trolls fought them for many thousands of years, but never succeeded in winning a true victory over the Aqir. Eventually, due to the troll's persistence, the Aqiri Kingdom split in half as its citizens fled to separate colonies in the far northern and southern regions of the continent.

Two Aqiri city-states emerged -- Azjol-Nerub in the northern wastes, and Ahn'Qiraj in the southern desert. Though the trolls suspected that there were other Aqiri colonies beneath Kalimdor, their existence was never verified.

With the insectoids driven into exile, the twin troll empires returned to business as usual. Despire their great victory, neither civilization expanded much farther than their original boundaries. However, ancient texts speak of a small faction of trolls that broke off from the Amani Empire and founded their own colony in the heart of the dark continent.

There, these brave pioneers discovered the cosmic Well of Eternity which transformed them into beings of immense power. Some legends suggest that these adventurous trolls were the first Night Elves, though this theory has never been proven.

Empires' Fall
Aside from their shadowy origins, it is clear that the Night Elves came to power soon after their discovery of the Well of Eternity. Despite the trolls' attempts to keep them from expanding their territories, the Night Elves built up a mighty empire that expanded rapidly across primordial Kalimdor. Wielding fierce magics never before imagined by the superstitious trolls, the night elves had little trouble doing what the evil Aqir could never do: topple the two greatest empires in the world.

The night elves systematically dismantled the troll's defenses and supply chains. The trolls, unable to counter the elves' destructive magics, buckled under the onslaught. The night elves proved to every bit as cunning and bloodthirsty as the savage trolls -- incurring the latter race's eternal hatred and disdain. The Gurubashi and Amani Empires fragmented within only a few short years.

Eventually, the night elves were burned by the arcane fires they had sought to control. Their reckless use of magic had lured the demonic Burning Legion to the world. The demons crushed much of the night elves' civilization. Though there are no records to indicate that the Legion attacked either troll civilization, it is likely that battles took place across the breadth of the continent.

At the end of this terrible conflict - known as the War of the Ancients -- the Well of Eternity imploded. The resulting shockwave shattered the greater landmass of Kalimdor. The center of the continent was blasted beneath the sea, leaving only a small group of broken, single continents.

Thus, great chunks of both the Amani and Gurubashi Empires still exist in the present day lands of Quel'Thalas and Stranglethorn (respectively). The Azj'Aqir kingdoms of Azjol-Nerub and Ahn'Qiraj have also survived in present day Northrend and Tanaris (respectively).

Both troll civilizations recoiled from the vast destruction of the primordial world they had known. The dauntless trolls rebuilt their ravaged cities and set about to reclaim some of their former power.

Wrath of the Soulflayer
The long centuries following the Great Sundering of the world were difficult ones for the troll race. Famine and terror were commonplace within the broken kingdoms. The Gurubashi trolls, driven to deperate ends, sought aid from ancient, mystical forces. Though both of the troll kingdoms shared a central belief in a great pantheon of primitive gods, the Gurubashi fell under the sway of the darkest one.

Hakkar the Soulflayer, a vile, bloodthirsty spirit, heard the trolls' call and decided to aid them. Hakkar gave his secrets of blood to the Gurubashi and helped them extend their civilization across most of Stranglethron Vale and certain islands of the South Seas. Though he brought them great power, Hakkar wanted more and more for his efforts.

The bloodthirsty god demanded souls be sacrificed to him daily. He dreamed of gaining access to the physical world so he could devour the blood of all mortal creatures. In time the Gurubashi realized what kind of creature they had courted with -- and turned against him. The strongest tribes rose up against Hakkar and his loyal priests -- the Atal'ai.

The terrible war that ensued between Hakkar's followers and the rest of the Gurubashi tribes is spoken of only in whispers. The budding empire was shattered by the magic unleashed between the angry god and his rebel children. Just as the battle seemed most hopeless, the trolls succeeded in destroying Hakkar's avatar and banishing him from the world.

Even his Atal'ai priests were eventually driven from the capital of Zul'Gurub and forced to survive in the uncharted swamplands of the north. Within those shadowy fens they built a great temple to their fallen god -- Atal'Hakkar -- where they could continue to do their master's work...

The rest of the Gurubashi tribes went their separate ways after the great civil war had left their lands in ruins. The Skullsplitter, Bloodscalp and Darkspear tribes set off to claim their own lands within the vast jungles of Stranglethorn. Though a fragile peace had settled over the broken empire, some spoke of a prophecy that Hakkar would one day be reborn into the world -- and on that day -- he would comsume it whole.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Obervations
1. Trolls might possibly be the oldest race on Azeroth.
2. Night elves might have descended from trolls.
3. Nerubians and Silithids are related.
4. Hakkar the Soulflayer =/= Hakkar the Houndmaster.

Thanks to Melina from Blizzard WoW forums.

SuRReAL OrC

25-10-04, 04:31 PM

*Jaw drops* Yunn, you are my hero. :)

IlidanStormrage

25-10-04, 04:39 PM

I hate you YuNn, I was about to post that -_-. lol jk.

But I believe the old lore thread someone said something about Night Elves coming from trolls. How funny :y-square:

Kingcrazygenius

25-10-04, 04:54 PM

Some of us have been theorizing as such since before TFT came out.

WarDragon

25-10-04, 06:08 PM

Aaaahhh, delicious...

yunn

25-10-04, 06:55 PM

Never mind, Ilidan, you can have Surreal Orc's hero worship, I don't need it. :þ

Mark Romaneck

26-10-04, 07:17 AM

I knew Silthids and those "Nerubian Pits" were realated somehow!!

Then for how long the trolls have been in Azeroth, I recall reading in the first lore treadh about trolls fighting against Krakens

Lord Kil'jaeden

26-10-04, 08:04 AM

Interesting reading, thank you yunn.

According to several quest infos , the main purpose of the Sillithids is to expand everywhere and devour anything not Sillithid on their path.
So if the Sillithids were present since the Nerubian time, they would have been encountered a very lot earlier in the storyline.

Some quest infos lead to think that the Sillithids are not from the Azeroth world (similarities with the Zerg way to infest world ? :) )

At this time, i think that the Sillithids are not related to the Nerubian at all despite the Nerubian Pits , the only common ground between them is that they are both insectoids. The Sillithids are a threat to every life form in Azeroth and are new to the Azeroth world.

Actually, they have infested the area name Silithus that you can find in the South West part of this map (http://www.worldofwar.net/cartography/worldmap/kalimdorcont.php) (a strange thing is that the Nerubian Pits do not appear anymore ?)

If the Sillithids are related to the Nerubian, i wonder what kind of new trick Blizzard will pull to explain why they were not noticed in several thousand years (they were sleeping ? they were in holidays ? alive nerubian just mutated in Sillithids in the last 4 years ?)

Kingcrazygenius

26-10-04, 08:15 AM

i wonder what kind of new trick Blizzard will pull to explain why they were not noticed in several thousand years

Well Blizzard managed to keep the Naga occupied for a long time, why not these new bugs who are infact old bugs?

Mark Romaneck

26-10-04, 08:51 AM

Well as we can see the Nerubian Pits have been changed to the Ann`Quira city and we can see a "scarab wall" on the border.

but on silithas... there are 3 hives, and on the center, there is this "twilight base"
Werent these twilight guys servants of the leguion, could the silithids are demonic bugs

plus we know Nerubians, from Azjol-Nerub, but we do not know these Ann`Quira citizens.
The nerubians have been in ice for a long time now, and these Quirans (its a cute name) have been in the desert for a long time as well, maybe evolution took place and they have become WAY diferent from the Nerubians

Damn there must be a lot of these books out there

Lord Kil'jaeden

26-10-04, 09:13 AM

Some quest content related to the Silithids, revealing more about this new danger (notice several ester eggs related to Starcraft :) )
each Alliance , Horde and Alliance/Horde are quoted on a chronological basis for each factions (well if i have not be mistaken by the quests level, an error is always possible).

I am entrusting you with a copy of the report Raschal made on the infestation of southeastern Feralas. While the main report is being filed in Darnassus, I want you to give this copy to an associate of the Protectorate. Her name is Gracina Spiritmight; she is a priestess who dwells in the Temple of the Moon in Darnassus. She has broad knowledge on these kinds of creatures, and her receiving this report would benefit us all.
You're dismissed - good luck, Snooke; may Elune watch over us all

I urge you to take this report to someone who has working knowledge in this kind of thing.
I know this night elf scholar named Gracina Spiritmight. She's spent a lot of time studying life forms that are unique to the ecology of Azeroth; she's a historian to boot! If you want someone to help figure out what exactly this threat is, and more importantly how to stop it, give her the report. We'll need the help.
Last I heard, she was residing in the Temple of the Moon, located in Darnassus.
Toki, your help has been immeasurable. The time will come, no doubt, when I'll ask for your assistance against the silithid once more. We must absorb what we have learned in Un'Goro; I fear that my assumptions that the silithid originated from Un'Goro are now wrong... that indeed there is a far stronger presence somewhere.
Take this note to Idriana at the bank. She'll give you something from my vault that should be viewed as a token of my gratitude. Thank you for your assistance, brave priest.

Here's your report. I urge you to take it to someone who might have working knowledge in this kind of thing.
I know this troll scholar named Zilzibin Drumlore. He's spent a lot of time studying life forms that are unique to the ecology of Azeroth; he's a historian to boot! If you want someone to help figure out what exactly this threat is and how to stop it, give this report to him. We're going to need all the help we can get.
Zil lives in a house on the second tier of the Drag in Orgrimmar.
Many travelers who've come through the Crossroads helped me gather eggs from the Field of Giants, and many of them have tales of how deadly the creatures are. I've heard enough to consider them insects a much larger threat than my masters first thought.
I need a courier to travel to Orgrimmar to meet Belgrom Rockmaul. It be no simple matter, and someone who would take the task seriously should go.
Belgrom usually be found outside the warriors' guild house.
You inspect the carapace carefully. As you turn it over in your hands you realize that the chitinous plating is interlaced in such a way that makes it incredibly strong. It's unlike anything you've ever seen. You inspect the rest of the corpse further and realize that these creatures are very powerful and highly evolved.
Looking down at the carapace again, you think that Korran would enjoy studying more of these creatures. It could help him figure out what these creatures are, and where they come from.

It would seem that the silithid's intent, nay - reason for being, is to devour everything in their path that is not of their ecology. Their focus is singular, and it is for this reason they are a grave threat to all life on Azeroth.
What we've seen to date is but the first stages. I suspect that their strength comes from deeper in Kalimdor: Un'Goro Crater. Go to Gadgetzan in the Tanaris desert and speak to Alchemist Pestlezugg. Tell him of my theory; he will surely aid us in fighting the silithid.
Senior Surveyor Fizzledowser needs to see this report immediately. Actually... everyone who can read needs to see this report. We are facing a grave and serious threat to not only Tanaris and Gadgetzan, but if left unchecked, the entirety of southern Kalimdor. Heck, even quite possible the whole of Azeroth; this thing has given no indication it will subside.
Have Fizzledowser make a duplicate of the report for you to distribute freely to your allegiance. Everyone must know about this threat!
All right now, these reports about the bugs... what we know is that they are draining the water pools that used to be where the Noxious Lair is. What we DON'T know is, well, everything else.
Let's figure out who are enemy is first! I want you to head into the Noxious Lair and get some parts off of those critters. Get five from the Centipaar there and bring them to Alchemist Pestlezugg for him to dink with. With him on the case, we'll figure out what they are!
My research revealed to me that the silithid are like bees; destroy the queen of the hive, and the rest of should be thrown into disarray. I'll brew a lure that we'll use to bring out the queen; once summoned, you'll take her down.
First though, we need some reagents; we don't want you bungling into the jungle unprepared. Go west to find the silithid hive in Un'Goro Crater and obtain a scent gland from one of the bugs. I'll also need some samples of the native Un'Goro soil.
Here's the lure. Inside the hive network should be a crystal of some sort. We think the silithid use the crystal as some sort of hive-wide attunement device. As for where this crystal might be, I'd say try the hatcheries inside the hive.
Using the lure on the crystal should roust out the queen, but be warned - she will probably be protected by several guards. Take out the queen and remove her brain. As icky as that sounds, we desperately need to study it. Good luck, Penni!

Lord Kil'jaeden

26-10-04, 09:38 AM

Here are several view of the Silithids and their architecture to cover the visual part of the subject.

screen no1 (http://img84.exs.cx/img84/4671/silith1.jpg), screen no2 (http://img84.exs.cx/img84/108/silith2.jpg), screen no3 (http://img84.exs.cx/img84/7818/silith3.jpg), screen no4] (http://img26.exs.cx/img26/6249/silith4.jpg)

screen no5 (http://img26.exs.cx/img26/38/silith5.jpg), screen no6 (http://img26.exs.cx/img26/8317/silith6.jpg), screen no7 (http://img26.exs.cx/img26/3119/silith7.jpg), screen no8 (http://img26.exs.cx/img26/4993/silith8.jpg)

screen no9 (http://img10.exs.cx/img10/8708/silith9.jpg), screen no10 (http://img26.exs.cx/img26/9610/silith10.jpg), screen no11 (http://img26.exs.cx/img26/425/silith11.jpg), screen no12 (http://img10.exs.cx/img10/314/silith12.jpg)

screen no13 (http://img10.exs.cx/img10/6999/silith13.jpg), screen no14 (http://img96.exs.cx/img96/8752/silith14.jpg), screen no15 (http://img96.exs.cx/img96/6272/silith15.jpg), screen no16 (http://img96.exs.cx/img96/3577/silith16.jpg), screen no17 (http://img78.exs.cx/img78/435/silith17.jpg)

Mark Romaneck

26-10-04, 09:52 AM

Well they are strange, God bless you Kil, this is amazing

xShadowleavesx

27-10-04, 10:52 AM

My guess is that the Nerubians are not related to the ancient empire in Yunn's post, but instead defeated the colonists in Azol-Nerub, who were banished below the ground and became nothing but legend, until of course Arthas and Anub'arak ran into them. The silithids probrably weren't found before because they were underground; remember, the trolls thought they had underground colonies.

Mark Romaneck

27-10-04, 02:26 PM

Interesting Theory... whoever I dont think it happened that way

And come to think of it... maybe the faceless ones are a kind of demonish-troll

Inquisistor7

27-10-04, 02:35 PM

And come to think of it... maybe the faceless ones are a kind of demonish-troll

Possibly, but there's not much to base that off of. I mean, we don't know who predates whom, besides, that wouldn't prove that the faceless ones came from the trolls (the whole post hoc ergo propter hoc (after this therefore on account of this) fallacy).

SuRReAL OrC

31-10-04, 10:56 AM

Updates, anyone?

Diskordjah

31-10-04, 11:55 AM

Shandris Feathermoon has led an army of sentinels to Feralas and founded the Feathermoon Stronghold on an island off the coast.

Kingcrazygenius

31-10-04, 11:59 AM

Tyrande and Shandris, who is the sexier of the two?

And what would make a cooler name assuming I have a second daughter?

yunn

31-10-04, 06:45 PM

And what would make a cooler name assuming I have a second daughter?
Vashj.

. .

Kingcrazygenius

31-10-04, 11:16 PM

Vashj is clearly second name material, if material at all.

Reign of Kalos

01-11-04, 07:05 AM

Raluca? I am so going to pay for uttering that name, it makes some people feel so miserible.

yunn

01-11-04, 07:24 AM

:cry: :cry: :cry:

Kingcrazygenius

01-11-04, 07:27 AM

Raluca will not be the name of my daughter...it will be the name of my wife...

Lord Kil'jaeden

03-11-04, 11:48 AM

Kingcrazygenius

03-11-04, 12:16 PM

Was that place what I thought it was?

Lord Kil'jaeden

03-11-04, 01:33 PM

If you think it is the good place i think you thought, then you had a good thought, unless i thought wrongly that you are thinking about the bad place.

Now i'm just confusing myself, so i post some screenshots of the place :
-one of the CG from 2001 (http://img24.exs.cx/img24/5581/cg2001.jpg) that is peacefull
-one of the ingame version (http://img85.exs.cx/img85/6933/ingameone1.jpg) that is always peacefull
-and one of the new CG (http://img24.exs.cx/img24/66/cg2004.jpg) that can lead into thinking about some future stories that are not that peacefull.
Ah, i am not confused anymore.

Notice that you should watch the video before clicking anywhere if you don't want to fall , victim of a spoiler attack

Diskordjah

04-11-04, 12:57 AM

the WoW manual, it contains some goodies (like Furion is trapped in the Dream!) but mostly known stuff.

http://forums.samods.org//index.php?showtopic=2219&st=0&#entry35275

yunn

04-11-04, 02:23 AM

On a side note, I like this quote though. Pity it has a glaring typo.

"Here Lies Grommash Hellsceam.
Chieftain of the Warsong clan.
In many ways, the curse of our people began and ended with Grom. His name meant "Giant's Heart" in our ancient tongue. He earned that.
Name a Hundred-fold as he stood alone before the Demon Mannoroth.
- And won our freedom with his blood.
Lok'tar Ogar, Big Brother. May the Warsong never fade"
-Thrall, Warchief of the Horde.EDIT: Two typos in fact...

Alisdair

04-11-04, 04:19 AM

Lord Kil'jaeden

04-11-04, 05:26 AM

the WoW manual, it contains some goodies (like Furion is trapped in the Dream!) but mostly known stuff.

http://forums.samods.org//index.php?showtopic=2219&st=0&#entry35275

Interesting.

I wonder if what some people guessed about the responsability of the Archdruid Fandral Staghelm in Malfurion disparition is true, in regards of his very strange behaviour (leading to think that he is really corrupted and not just an idiot).

Kingcrazygenius

04-11-04, 07:57 AM

I like how almost all the notable people of their races are considered to be the best or mightiest or whateverest people of their race of the entire world.

WarDragon

04-11-04, 09:20 AM

Remember the "underground" video that was featured in worldofwar.net (that was deleted some days after) showing the CG intro of WOW in a very bad quality (a camera filming a monitor)

Now it is available (http://www.gamershell.com/news/18329.html) in a very good quality regularly , and is impressive.

When I downloaded it, it told me the Zip file was invalid or corrupted...

The manual information is nice, though. Not only do we get word on Furion, but I believe this is the first we've heard that Vol'Jin is both a Shadow Hunter, and Sen'Jin's son. I can already tell that Tauren crone is going to be trouble...

On a side note, I like this quote though. Pity it has a glaring typo

EDIT: Two typos in fact...

Only one I see is the period between "that" and "Name." We learned in the RoC campaign (from Mannoroth's dialouge) that "Grom" is short for "Grommash."

Interesting.

I wonder if what some people guessed about the responsability of the Archdruid Fandral Staghelm in Malfurion disparition is true, in regards of his very strange behaviour (leading to think that he is really corrupted and not just an idiot).

Interesting indeed. That's the way I'm leaning.

I like how almost all the notable people of their races are considered to be the best or mightiest or whateverest people of their race of the entire world.

As do I.

Lord Kil'jaeden

04-11-04, 10:27 AM

When I downloaded it, it told me the Zip file was invalid or corrupted...

I downloaded it from the first mirror of the list (europe #1 i think) from that site and it worked very well.

You can download the video from a mirror from this other site (http://www.3dgamers.com/dlselect/games/worldofwarcraft/wowintro.avi.html).

It really worthes the 45mo download.

I like how almost all the notable people of their races are considered to be the best or mightiest or whateverest people of their race of the entire world.
Maybe the Blizzard story team members are thinking that the players are needing strong , powerfull, etc... figures to identify with the faction they will choose.
Or something like that.

Kingcrazygenius

04-11-04, 11:59 AM

Indeed, I'm going with Gnomes and Forsaken myself.

yunn

04-11-04, 02:52 PM

Only one I see is the period between "that" and "Name." We learned in the RoC campaign (from Mannoroth's dialouge) that "Grom" is short for "Grommash."I knew that. I like the fact that Grom actually is short for Grommash. Didn't you see Grom Hellsceam? :y-mm:

Kingcrazygenius

04-11-04, 03:56 PM

No, so it obviously wasn't a very devestating typo.

Mark Romaneck

04-11-04, 04:11 PM

hey dudes check this out

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/basics/mounts.shtml#kodo

3 new mounts!!!

SuRReAL OrC

04-11-04, 04:14 PM

Oh my....oh my god. K-k-k-KODO!!!! :bigclap:

YES!!! OMG OMG OMG OMG!!! I am definatly making a Tauren druid!!!w0000000000000t!!!!w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t!!!

Kodo<--------- :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap:

yunn

04-11-04, 04:39 PM

So what happens to plainsrunning? They finally realised that running on all fours would look silly?

Mark Romaneck

04-11-04, 05:04 PM

I want my shaman only mount

I hope its some kind of spirital beast

Kingcrazygenius

04-11-04, 05:12 PM

Oh my god. Raptors?

Is there any creature Blizzard won't consider putting in?

Diskordjah

05-11-04, 01:52 AM

I reckon (hope) that plainsrunning is the lvl 40 "mount", and kodos are the lvl 60 one. guess it was that or give taurens a "roadrunner" animation with legs just spinning around...

Divine_Pie.exe

05-11-04, 02:15 AM

Raptors were announced a long time ago...

The kodos looks cool, but I perfer raptors/wolves/gnome mount than all the other mounts.

I plan to be an NE Huntress who rides a raptor (which is very rare, since blizzard said its very dificult to get an opposite faction mount).

Kingcrazygenius

05-11-04, 06:29 AM

I reckon (hope) that plainsrunning is the lvl 40 "mount", and kodos are the lvl 60 one. guess it was that or give taurens a "roadrunner" animation with legs just spinning around...

Nope, they pretty much said Tauren lose their plainsrunning ability.

WarDragon

05-11-04, 06:42 AM

I knew that. I like the fact that Grom actually is short for Grommash. Didn't you see Grom Hellsceam? :y-mm:
Oh, my bad. Mounts look cool, though.

Divine_Pie.exe

05-11-04, 10:40 AM

What is so significant about this picture: http://img24.exs.cx/img24/66/cg2004.jpg ?

Its just an orc battling something with fire surrounding him.

Kingcrazygenius

05-11-04, 11:06 AM

What is signifigant is the structure that burns behind him. The fires surrounding the warrior are mere sparks to the rage and sorrow within.

Romanov77

05-11-04, 12:06 PM

What is so significant about this picture: http://img24.exs.cx/img24/66/cg2004.jpg ?

Its just an orc battling something with fire surrounding him.

Looks like a cinematic to me...interesting...

Btw, WoW has a release date, check the blizzard website.

Random question:
If I will buy the package, there will be any kind of "single player" goodies to justify the money spent?

Lord Kil'jaeden

05-11-04, 12:42 PM

If my memory does not betray me,Blizzard had stated that no single player content will be found in world of warcraft.

It would have been interesting even without social interaction with other players to explore areas, to try completing the hundreds of quests offline, but unfortunately it is a no.

Paladin307

05-11-04, 12:54 PM

I think what some people were insinuating was that it looks like Durotar is burning.

Kingcrazygenius

05-11-04, 02:11 PM

there will be any kind of "single player" goodies to justify the money spent?

I think it's very existance justifies the money spent.

Divine_Pie.exe

05-11-04, 03:38 PM

Durotar isn't burning.. those are bon fires started by the orcs. It may just be a demonic ritual... or something to scare away the humans...

OT: KCG: If you get into open beta KCG, what will be your name? Since you cant have king.. is it going to be crazygenius?

Kingcrazygenius

05-11-04, 04:55 PM

Hmm...my account can't be Kingcrazygenius? Then I guess I'll have to go with my default fantasy-like name of Anthonox.

yunn

05-11-04, 05:40 PM

Fantasy names = good.

SuRReAL OrC

07-11-04, 04:43 PM

Hmmm. In this map (http://www.worldofwar.net/cartography/worldmap/kalimdorcont.php), beside Un'Goro crater is a region called Sithilas, in which there are three hives. Guess it turns out the Sithilids have their own freakin' nation.

Lord Kil'jaeden

08-11-04, 10:17 AM

Noticed the following with the release notes (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/patch-11-07-04.html) of the new beta patch of WoW, along some Onyxia announcement.

Discovered in the heart of Blackrock Mountain beyond the Depths, lies the Molten Core. Within the Molten Core lives a multitude of ancient and powerful evil. Adventurers be ware, for the dangers found within the Molten Core are many and takes many forms.

I wonder if it is in that place Blizzard will finally put Ragnaros the Firelord , as he was reported as being an early 'boss'you have to kill in Blizzard raids ?

Diskordjah

08-11-04, 12:14 PM

yeah, thats where he is. kinda confirmed, though I cant recall where... I do wonder what he looks like though!

Lord Kil'jaeden

08-11-04, 04:09 PM

Great :)
I hope they will come with a very good model for Ragnaros, unlike what they created recently for Cairne (http://img16.exs.cx/img16/7669/taurencairne1.jpg) (the low poly model from warcraft 3 looks better in my opinion)

Lord Kil'jaeden

08-11-04, 04:18 PM

Huge info (http://www.wow-ra.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=10165) , warning heavy spoiling visuals .

Related to Stormwind Castle is the only hint i give there.
Read well the texts in the bottom left of all the screenshots
We knew all this would happen, now is the confirmation.
:)

IlidanStormrage

08-11-04, 04:18 PM

The Cairne model is good, BUT IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE CAIRNE!

Lord Kil'jaeden

08-11-04, 04:21 PM

Read my previous post that was instaposting yours, that is huge infos :)

IlidanStormrage

08-11-04, 04:28 PM

OMG awsome! Very awsome :y-square:

Nitara

08-11-04, 04:44 PM

Onyxia is a dragonspawn??

Kingcrazygenius

08-11-04, 04:54 PM

No, she's a full-fledged dragon.

Nitara

08-11-04, 08:20 PM

Well that's what I though too but look at those screenshots from Lord Kiljaeden. That's a black dragonspawn selected and the hovertext says "Lady Onyxia."

Diskordjah

09-11-04, 12:58 AM

if she can transform from dragon to human, dont you think she could take form in the between? besides... Onyxia wouldnt fit in the throne room.

WarDragon

09-11-04, 05:22 PM

if she can transform from dragon to human, dont you think she could take form in the between? besides... Onyxia wouldnt fit in the throne room.
De Troll speak truth, mon.

WarDragon

10-11-04, 04:44 PM

Okay, I finally managed to watch the WoW opening cinematic, thanks to a handy link to a QuickTime version on Blizzard's site.

HOLY CRAP. That is the coolest thing I have ever seen! I thought I wanted to play the game before, now I want it so bad I think I could weep!

Kingcrazygenius

10-11-04, 04:45 PM

Yeah, it's cool isn't it?

Too bad the real thing doesn't look that sweet.

SuRReAL OrC

10-11-04, 05:21 PM

lol, in the Onyxia screens, I saw 'Luthien spits on Lady Katrana Prestor' and 'Marr licks Lady Katrana Prestor'. :lol:

Rowan Seven

13-11-04, 09:34 AM

Preview of Warcraft RPG: "Shadows & Light" (http://www.arthausgames.com/index.php?line=news&articleid=95)

Looks like "Shadows & Light" should be available for purchase late November/early December, provided it isn't delayed.

Lord Kil'jaeden

13-11-04, 04:30 PM

Thanks for the link.
In an older thread, it had been mentionned that Elune really existed in the warcraft univers and was not a product of the imagination of the Night Elves.

But now, there is something more about her
With it comes to deities, the Warcraft setting relies upon certain distinct differences from standard D&D. The setting has only one true deity: Elune, the Moon Goddess. Its other immortal powers are more like demigods, but they do not grant divine spells or domains. Our challenge in Shadows & Light, then, involved finding a way to represent them within the boundaries of the d20 System mechanics.
So Elune the Moon Goddess not only exist, but is the only real deity being in the warcraft universe.
One key aspect of the Warcraft setting to keep in mind is that its immortal powers are vulnerable to physical destruction.
So all the other supposed godlike being are in fact 'simple' immortal being that can be physically destroyed.
Very interesting information.

Inquisistor7

13-11-04, 04:47 PM

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that Elune is the only deity in the entire universe of Warcraft, rather it seems more likely to me that she is the only one that we know about (and or the only one on Azeroth).

Then again maybe I've been spending too much time in the fan fiction forum.

Kingcrazygenius

13-11-04, 05:15 PM

NEVER use the FFF for anything more than fan fiction. It never has any basis in fact. And until they say there are other deities besides Elune then Elune is the only deity.

*Bows to his Goddess*

Inquisistor7

13-11-04, 06:17 PM

All I meant was that my imagination is overactive.

Kingcrazygenius

13-11-04, 07:42 PM

Some television should fix that.

Rowan Seven

14-11-04, 10:59 AM

So Elune the Moon Goddess not only exist, but is the only real deity being in the warcraft universe.

I wouldn't say that, exactly. By 'true' it might be meant that Elune is the only well-known deity that acts like a deity in the typical Dungeons & Dragons 'sense'. Additionally, it is prudent to interpret Warcraft RPG info in light of other Warcraft sources because errors have and do occur.

Some television should fix that.

Shame. :g shake: You should try to be more encouraging, Kingcrazygenius. Having a strong imagination can be a very good thing. You don't see me cast dispersions on your fantasies concerning Lady Vashj, do you? :g laugh:

Lord Kil'jaeden

14-11-04, 11:17 AM

I wouldn't say that, exactly. By 'true' it might be meant that Elune is the only well-known deity that acts like a deity in the typical Dungeons & Dragons 'sense'. Additionally, it is prudent to interpret Warcraft RPG info in light of other Warcraft sources because errors have and do occur.
If i remember well, all of the infos found in the rpg books are under Blizzard approval . So if a lore error occur , it can just be because Blizzard made a recent storyline change that could not make it in time in one of the rpg book.

So, what are the errors that have occured in the lore communicated by the rpg books ?

Kingcrazygenius

14-11-04, 12:29 PM

Shame. :g shake: You should try to be more encouraging, Kingcrazygenius. Having a strong imagination can be a very good thing. You don't see me cast dispersions on your fantasies concerning Lady Vashj, do you? :g laugh:

They aren't fantasies.

Rowan Seven

15-11-04, 04:16 PM

So, what are the errors that have occured in the lore communicated by the rpg books ?

A debate on what is and is not an "error" could go on for a while, but here's an example:

"Illidan consumes power from a demonic artifact known as the Skull of Gul'dan and then tracks down and slays Mannoroth," (Lands of Conflict, pg. 35).

On the whole, the RPG books are mostly accurate and contain useful information, and Blizzard does have a role in producing the products. However, occasionally errors in wording and history/facts (I think we all know that Illidan slew Tichondrius, not Mannoroth) aren't caught during editing and are published. Fortunately, a knowledgeable Warcraft fan should be able to catch them. It is important, though, to compare the validity of Warcraft sources with other Warcraft sources and then go with the one(s) that you think are more reliable if there seems to be a contradiction.

They aren't fantasies.

And like I said, I won't cast dispersions.

Kingcrazygenius

15-11-04, 06:46 PM

You're just jealous.

xShadowleavesx

19-11-04, 02:23 PM

http://forums.rpgforums.net/showthread.php?t=279081

Big info- Varian Wyrnn is trapped in a prison near Theramore, and will be rescued in WoW. Apparentley, Jaina help you find him, which is find interesting; i had thought Theramoore was failry isolated from the rest of the human Kingdoms, but perhapes Jaina had more connections than i thought. I'm guessing she'll have some problems with Kul Tiras; her brother can't be very happy with what went down with Admiral Proudmoore.

Nephalim

19-11-04, 02:47 PM

Well, it has been four years, so I'd be a little suspicious if she HADN'T gotten in touch with anyone. As for her brother, he might sympathize more with her than with her father. They did grow up together, after all, and Daelin was a pretty absent father, and a filanderer. But that's not very dramatic, so yeah, he probably isn't very thrilled with her. But then it seems that few humans are very thrilled with any other humans, right now.

Kingcrazygenius

19-11-04, 02:50 PM

When are humans ever entralled by other humans? We hate eachother and ourselves, always have.

Nephalim

19-11-04, 02:55 PM

Yeah but in Azeroth now, people are throwing down their pretenses and just going at it. The Syndicate, the Defias Brotherhood, the Argent Dawn, the Scarlet Crusade - I'm not even counting all the pirates - are all human-founded organizations who seek to subvert the current rule. Well, except for the Scarlet Crusade (I take it you all know who leads it), but it does have a lot of humans in it, and a presence in the human capital. In most other races there is some degree of subversion going on, but with the humans it's around every corner.

WarDragon

19-11-04, 06:30 PM

I've said it before, and I''ll say it again; every one of humanity's problems, and successes, both in Azeroth and the real world, can be traced back to the fact that we breed like rabbits.

Regarding the True King of Stormwind's imprisonment; would anyone disagree that Onyxia likely had something to do with it, hoping that young Anduin would be easier to manipulate/control? If this does turn out to be the case, it'll actually be kind of suprising that she didn't kill him outright.

Good to know that he and Jaina seem to be on good terms, at any rate.

Diskordjah

20-11-04, 01:14 AM

the Argent Dawn? I thought they were just an organization fighting the syndicate and other spreaders of demonic corruption? are ya sure ya dont mean the Argus Wake?

xShadowleavesx

20-11-04, 06:52 AM

I don't agree with calling the Defias Brotherhood evil. They were shafted by a corrupt government, and they were they only ones to notice there was a problem with Stormwind's officials. Considering the fact black dragons are controlling Stormwind, I’d say they’re just the only people in the Kingdom that realize there is a problem and are trying to confront it. Their methods may be called into doubt, but they definitely aren’t evil…dissidents is a better word.

Also, the Scarlet Crusade isn’t really evil either. They’re just people who’ve been driven a smidge crazy after seeing everything they love destroyed and are easily manipulated into joining a group that’s trying to eradicate the Undead. Given that we have no evidence of them destroying innocent people, I wouldn’t label them as evil either.

Diskordjah

20-11-04, 07:46 AM

hmm, so you dont think scarlet crusade is evil... what if we told ya how one of their top dogs is actually Balnazzar in disguise, a dreadlord thought to be killed?

xShadowleavesx

20-11-04, 08:01 AM

I realize that, but I'm talking about the individuals and not the organization, hence why i said they were manipulated.

Nephalim

20-11-04, 08:25 AM

I didn't say that any of these organizations were evil. Now, I'd say the Defias loses a lot of points because they not only attack the government, but the people it rules over. So while it was founded on good intentions, that's slipped away completely. I think that calling anything "good" or "evil" in warcraft is not a good idea.

And likewise, I completely see eye to eye with the Argent Dawn, though they are being a tad naive. But they think that the petty wars between Alliance and Horde are stupid and wrong, and they think that we should focus on more palpable dangers together. Honestly I never encountered the Argus Wake in my travels.

Mark Romaneck

20-11-04, 10:40 AM

were all the germans in the WWII were evil??? most probably not, but their leader was, and there fore you fight for your leaders cause

it is really irrelevant wether or not the Scarlet crusade is evil... their leader is evil and they obey his orders, therefore they must be brutally erradicated, exept the hot female cruzaders

Nephalim

20-11-04, 11:46 AM

their leader was, and there fore you fight for your leaders causeWell, some might say that it was up to them to overthrow their corrupted leader and not be blindly loyal to a cause. There are a million different ways to look at that, and you can't just make general rules for behaviour and moral stricture.

Reign of Kalos

20-11-04, 12:34 PM

In an organisation so loosely organised, the majority of choices are in the hands of the people actually doing the fighting, rather than with a leadership. They rally to the same basic cause, but may not have all that much contact from the higher figures at all.

Cerebral_009

20-11-04, 01:20 PM

There are a million different ways to look at that, and you can't just make general rules for behaviour and moral stricture.

Abso-frelling-lutely!

O.K, my take on the Defias Boys and Girls... Yes, they were left with limited options. No, they aint exactly a friendly bunch. Can I forgive them... yes, undoubtdly. Are they demon worshipers... no. Therefore, they're fine.

Remind me, though: The Argent Dawn (I encountered their post in Darnassus)... Who established it... humans? What's their main ethos?

The syndicate.... who are they? I aint never heard of them.

---------Onto the less human-centric groups----------

The Twilight's Hammmer - They're an eclectic bunch of dodgers who worship the old gods and want to bring them back, yes? So which race initated this cult?

Obviously the Orcs started to the Shadow Council generations ago on Dreannor and their of worship and power is the Burning Legion, but they are now far less Orcish, am I right? I heard that they now count humans, gnomes, Undead and even Blood Elves among their ranks.

Inquisistor7

20-11-04, 06:09 PM

I think that calling anything "good" or "evil" in warcraft is not a good idea.

I don't think that is true. Certainly, to judge whether or not individuals, from their own subjective points of view, are good or evil is nigh impossible, but actions can be judged to be good or evil. So, in an objective sense, some things are good and some are evil.

Nephalim

20-11-04, 06:55 PM

No offense, but I think that's a very naive thing to say, because there's no such thing as an objective point of view. You can't just throw off the shackles of perception, and if you think you can you're deluding yourself. It's very easy to say that it's undeniably evil to kill a good person, but that gets harder the moment that it's put into a more complicated situation. If you can choose to kill one good person to save three good people, is it evil to let those three people die? I mean, if Ner'zhul DID succeed in taking over all the world, then there would be peace. Everyone would be enslaved into peace, but it would be peace nonetheless. But we regard it as "evil" because we value freedom over peace.

On a completely different note;

I'd come to the conclusion that the Argent Dawn had been founded by humans, but it's REALLY hard to tell. I might only be saying that because they all wear guild tabards, and everyone but humans look ridiculous in guild tabards. I only spoke to a tauren who gave me this big shpeel about how everyone should work together and put aside our petty differences so we can rid the world of the real dangers facing the world. He was at the Bulwark in the Plaguelands. The Argent Dawn reps in Stormwind and Darnassus wouldn't talk to me.

Anyway, I'm not sure if all this has been covered, but nevertheless:

Finally, a corrupt tauren! Magatha Grimtotem is a tauren crone of an opposing tribe to Cairne, and she thinks that the tauren should hold complete dominion of Kalimdor, and that all other races, orcs, night elves, etc. included, should be driven out. She rose to her station by arranging a marriage into power, and then her husband mysteriously died in a climbing accident. Suspicious?

Malfurion isn't missing in the sense we thought he was. He is lost in the Emerald Dream, and not even Ysera can find him. Now, no one says this outright, but Fandral proposed the plan of Teldrassil, and Malfurion voted against it, and then Malfurion gets mysterious lost in the Emerald Dream, Fandral gets promoted, and Teldrassil goes on as planned, apart, of course, from the corruption, unless, natch, that IS Fandral's plan.

Also, Aman'Thul forgive me for ever doubting the gnomes, I'm sure anyone who's played the beta will assure you that gnomes kick ass. However, this is the deal with Gnomeregan: After the trogg invasion began, Sicco Thermaplugg, the chief advisor to High Tinker Gelbin Mekkatorque, advised the High Tinker (which is basically the Prime Minister) to open the pipes on all the machinery and flood the city with toxic radiation. This drove the troggs out, but killed eighty percent of the gnomes. Mekkatorque led the survivors out of Gnomeregan, but in the chaos, Thermaplugg disappeared, and rumors abound that Thermaplugg knew of the invasion before it happened. It's also common knowledge that Thermaplugg secretly vied for Mekkatorque's station. Anyway, no one knows where he is.
On a related note, gnomes seem to have the only democracy in Azeroth. High Tinker is an elected station.

Oh, Anduin's bodyguard, Bolvar, or something? I forget it right now, but anyway, he's the descendant of Mara Fordragon, the "High Clerist of Stormwind." She's dead now, but apparently helped Lothar lead the Stormwind refugees to Lordaeron, and has since become the patron saint of refugees. She has a statue in Stormwind alongside King Llane and Daelin Proudmoore. Under Proudmoore's statue, it reads only "Friend of Stormwind."
And Lady Prestor is looking more and more suspicious, because she was apparently behind Anduin's hasty promotion to king after Varien went missing, and now she advises him, and he's just a stupid kid, so she's pretty much running the place, and I'm sure you all know who she actually is by now.

The Moonglade is a druid-only region accessible only by a spell which is only taught to druids. Nighthaven is inhabited by friendly tauren and night elves, as well as other servants of Cenarius. You can fly a hippogryph from it, but have no way of flying back, and have to use the spell again.

Thule Ravenclaw leads the Scourge in Silverpine, and he leads the undead forces from a keep on Fenris Isle, but he isn't actually undead. He's a former Dalaran wizard (friend of Bethor Iceshard) and he protects himself with an army of undead gnolls. Silverpine falls mainly under his control, until, of course, you take his head back to Hadrec. The other major powers are the Dalaran wizards in Ambermill, led by Ataeric, until you kill him, and the worgen of Pyrewood Village, led by another Dalaran defunct, Arugal, who lives in Shadowfang, who you also kill. So generally, by the end of World of Warcraft, the Forsaken should pretty much have Silverpine in the bag. Arugal apparently was a really crappy wizard, and he cut corners often. The worgen were actually an accident.

And I have no idea what's going on here, but there's a remote, desolate island off the coast of Hillsbrad called Purgation island, inhabited by fallen Paladins and priests (human).

Durnholde's been taken over by the Syndicate, and there's a quest where you have to release captured orcs from there (ironic, n'est pas?). Apparently there's an Alliance quest just like it where you rescue humans.

Oh yeah, and the naga are freakin' EVERYWHERE.

Kingcrazygenius

20-11-04, 07:20 PM

These 'naga' you speak of, are they of the topless female persausion?

Nephalim

20-11-04, 07:23 PM

I don't know, I never got a good look at them. As the beta was ending I went ultra-scouting all over Azeroth. Most of the naga were all way above my level, so I kept my distance, but they're freaking EVERYWHERE.

Inquisistor7

20-11-04, 07:43 PM

Kingcrazygenius

20-11-04, 07:48 PM

Yes they do.

Paladin307

20-11-04, 09:17 PM

And Lady Prestor is looking more and more suspicious, because she was apparently behind Anduin's hasty promotion to king after Varien went missing, and now she advises him, and he's just a stupid kid, so she's pretty much running the place, and I'm sure you all know who she actually is by now.

The Lady is actually in fact the dragon Onyxia.

Diskordjah

21-11-04, 02:08 AM

the Syndicate doesnt KNOW theyre advancing the plot of the Legion. the Syndicate is being manipulated by the Argus Wake, warlocks and whatnot.

oh, and you CAN fly hippo to the moonglade from auberdine, theres a THIRD flightpoint near the southern pond.

oh, and the high tinker knows where thermaplugg is, since he sends you to gnomeregan to KILL said thermaplugg.

Diskordjah

21-11-04, 02:42 AM

interestin'. the rogues association of the Horde is called the Shattered Hand. first the cult of the twilights hammer, then the burning blade, and now the shattered hand. do you thin blizz is just reusing names, or is this what the clans have come to?

Kingcrazygenius

21-11-04, 06:17 AM

I think it is Thrall who is reusing names. History seems important to shamans, so by giving each guild or whatever the name of a former clan they shall be remembered, or at least their name will be.

Nephalim

21-11-04, 07:31 AM

But to say that there is no objective point of view is itself an objective statement. Your argument is thus self-defeating. As for the rest of what you said, remember that the ends do not justify the means.How is saying there's no objective point of view an objective point of view? Obviously that's an opinion not universally shared that has been shaped by things unique to me. Objectivity would have me throw all that away and make a statement based purely on unbiased observation, which I can't do. Objectivity can only be applied to things real and tangible. Morals and ethics are human creations. I mean, let's get right down to it. What dictates that hurting people is a bad thing? What says that stealing is a bad thing? Saying that either is wrong or evil is impossible to objectively do.

And remember that you live and thrive in a world shaped by a history where the ends happily justify the means. Your country is currently engaged in a war. That's a perfect example of the ends justifying the means, and it always has been. Collateral damage is acceptable, because in the end, hopefully, things will be better. Once again, it's very easy to reduce something to simple binary opposites like right and wrong, but truthfully, that can't work. The world is just too complicated.

Diskord - The Shattered Hand are working to undermine Thrall's authority and ultimately assassinate him, so my guess is that they were founded by survivors of the old clan, just as the new Burning Blade cult was founded by survivors of that clan. The Twilight's Hammer is likely more of a philosophical connection - they believe they must bring about utter oblivion.

Inquisistor7

21-11-04, 07:51 AM

How is saying there's no objective point of view an objective point of view? Obviously that's an opinion not universally shared that has been shaped by things unique to me. Objectivity would have me throw all that away and make a statement based purely on unbiased observation, which I can't do. Objectivity can only be applied to things real and tangible. Morals and ethics are human creations. I mean, let's get right down to it. What dictates that hurting people is a bad thing? What says that stealing is a bad thing? Saying that either is wrong or evil is impossible to objectively do.

And remember that you live and thrive in a world shaped by a history where the ends happily justify the means. Your country is currently engaged in a war. That's a perfect example of the ends justifying the means, and it always has been. Collateral damage is acceptable, because in the end, hopefully, things will be better. Once again, it's very easy to reduce something to simple binary opposites like right and wrong, but truthfully, that can't work. The world is just too complicated.

Your argument is wrong for a few reasons. First of all, if you think there is no such thing as an objective perspective than I am just as right as you are. Second of all, you are being objective about this topic, and that is clearly contradictory to your underlying logic. Also, natural law (from God) causes man to set up moral laws. On top of that, divine revelation gives man a path to follow. If God did not exist then man would have no reason to be moral, but He does indeed exist. And jsut because the world often operates immorally doesn't make it okay (that is a fallacy of tu quo que, that something is okay to do because everyone does it).

EDIT: And if you are being subjective, then why listen to you?

Nephalim

21-11-04, 08:30 AM

And if you are being subjective, then why listen to you?Because there's nothing wrong with being subjective. There's nothing wrong with letting personal belief and experience influence your point of view, but I think it's important to understand that your point of view IS being influenced by things and will not necessarily be shared by everyone for reasons that they believe in equally as much as you believe in yours.
And jsut because the world often operates immorally doesn't make it okay.I never said it was. In fact, I haven't said anything is acceptable or unacceptable. You are the one who seeks to label different actions as good or evil.
Second of all, you are being objective about this topic, and that is clearly contradictory to your underlying logic.Once again, what makes you think that I'm being objective?
Also, natural law (from God) causes man to set up moral laws. On top of that, divine revelation gives man a path to follow.So then what about the things that God has yet to comment on, like capitalism, or corporations, pollution, capital punishment, deforestation, genetic engineering, etc etc?

And let's assume, for a moment, that God doesn't exist. THEN what dictates right and wrong or good and evil?

Inquisistor7

21-11-04, 09:13 AM

Because there's nothing wrong with being subjective. There's nothing wrong with letting personal belief and experience influence your point of view, but I think it's important to understand that your point of view IS being influenced by things and will not necessarily be shared by everyone for reasons that they believe in equally as much as you believe in yours.

You are right that being subjective is not inerently wrong, but a subjective perspective is true when it is in accordance with objective truth. It is not wrong to realize that one is onfluenced by otehr things, but it is wrong to conclude that there is no objective persepctive (which implies that there is no objective truth).

Once again, what makes you think that I'm being objective?

I think you are being objective bcause you are presenting an absolute about something. Moreover, you are claiming to see how things trully are (at least as far as this matter is concerned).

So then what about the things that God has yet to comment on, like capitalism, or corporations, pollution, capital punishment, deforestation, genetic engineering, etc etc?

But God has. Through the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church God has continued to present His will to makind.

And let's assume, for a moment, that God doesn't exist. THEN what dictates right and wrong or good and evil?

If God doesn't exist then there is no reason to follow any notions of good or evil, because, ultimately, nothing would matter. However, He does exist.

Nephalim

21-11-04, 09:47 AM

Inquisistor7

21-11-04, 09:58 AM

If you're just going to hide behind religion for this conversation, then I see that there's not really any point to continuing. I just hope that others see the irony in you saying that you have an objective view of good and evil because some men claim that God told them what that is.

I make no secrety of my religion. In fact, I have been using what it has tught me throughout this whole conversation. Anyway, I have no problem with ending this little debate, but I shall not begrudge you a reply to your last little commment : we all have faith in something, I happen to have faith in God and the Church.

Lord Kil'jaeden

21-11-04, 10:10 AM

Personally, i happen to have faith in the One God that is common to 3 religions.

But i have to remind you that we are talking about a fantasy universe that does not exist other than in our own imagination and discussing about a real life faith , a real life rule, real life good , real life evil, real life grey, real life chemical/physical law are not relevant there.

Warcraft is not real life as you know, neither are any lore informations from this thread.

So please, whatever faith or no faith you can have, keep in mind that the purpose of this thread is to discuss this warcraft fantasy universe lore, and not our world, or our real life thoughts or faith or whatever that should stay in the private real life domain.

Inquisistor7

21-11-04, 10:33 AM

Mark Romaneck

21-11-04, 10:38 AM

Neph, Inquisitor... the off-topic forum is over there thank you

Now so Naga are pretty much everywere?, and this... organization or cult, the one with the Tauren that talked about putting aside their diferences? Who are they, either way I havent putting enough attention, but who are they?? were do they come from? who is their leader?were do I join?

Nephalim

21-11-04, 10:51 AM

Mark - They're all over, I've seen stations in Darnassus, Stormwind, and the Bulwark, which basically puts them in three of the four corners of the world. They're made up of everyone, including the undead. I have no idea who founded them or what their ultimate goals are. They seem to have it in for the Scarlet Crusade, though.

As for the naga, I've seen them on every single exterior coast, from Auberdine to Southshore. And since Nazjatar is supposedly in the middle of the Great Sea, that means that they have been expanding outwardly in every direction, and they've done a fairly good job.

Inquisitor - I didn't say you were hiding your religion, I said you were hiding behind it. I don't care what you believe and I shouldn't have to. We were having a discussion where you held that we can look at morals objectively, and the evidence you supported that claim with is the most subjective evidence POSSIBLE, and moreover, refused to acknowledge the possibility that it might not be true.

Mark Romaneck

21-11-04, 11:24 AM

I see, thanks for the info Neph,

Whoever, Are all the blood elves allied with the Naga, cuz if they are everywere, that means that the Naga Queen is doing something important, she must be plotting at our backs

I see so these guys the "Arget Dawn", the Tauren is speaking of uniting against Azeroth comon treaths, thats a interesting goal...but maybe theyre more into evil deeds

Nephalim

21-11-04, 11:32 AM

Well, now I don't know if there's any lore to disprove this, but we still don't know if Azshara is formally allied with Illidan. If Vashj has remained in Outland for the past four years (it's a big if, I know) then it's possible that Azshara never recieved word from her, and is proceeding with her own plans without her.

As for the Argent Dawn, I see no evidence of foul play. A high ranking Dawn officer sends you to investigate the Scarlet Crusade, and after you kill Balnazzar, you bring his head back to the Argent Dawn.

Lord Kil'jaeden

21-11-04, 11:59 AM

Fair enough, but we are dealing with a story, and it is inevitable that people will discuss what meanings elements of a stroy have. So I don't see why we shouldn't argue about what morality and religion; if those things play into the story then we have plenty of cause to argue about them.

I understand, but when writing "warcraft is not real life" , i perfectly know that it was obvious, but i wrote this in purpose, to point out that what is good, what is evil, what are religion in this fantasy universe, can be completly different than our real life views on the matter, and so taking our real life views about those subjects are not relevant to what those subjects are in this fantasy universe.
Of course, there are sometime similarities but it is just that, similarities.

Well, now I don't know if there's any lore to disprove this, but we still don't know if Azshara is formally allied with Illidan. If Vashj has remained in Outland for the past four years (it's a big if, I know) then it's possible that Azshara never recieved word from her, and is proceeding with her own plans without her.

The only text i found, that has some relevance to this question is the following, coming from this page (http://wow.warcraftstrategy.com/lore/ahc.php) dealing with the Alliance&Horde Compendium book.

Speaking of the naga who joined the blood elves and Illidan, they are still at Illidan’s side, and will remain with him for a good while to come. Though they’ve seen nothing but defeat while under Illidan’s command, they have experienced more excitement in the past few years with Illidan than they had in the 10,000 years they lived beneath the Maelstrom in Nazjatar under the rule of Queen Azshara.

So at the end, there is a chance that this Naga faction will not be anymore under Azshara command and that can lead to think that Azshara is not exactly allied to Illidan anymore , but that remains to be conjectures as no more words had been said about this.

Nephalim

21-11-04, 12:32 PM

I think we might get some more insight into this when Shadows and Light comes out next week, as they've got information on Azshara.

Inquisistor7

21-11-04, 01:49 PM

I understand, but when writing "warcraft is not real life" , i perfectly know that it was obvious, but i wrote this in purpose, to point out that what is good, what is evil, what are religion in this fantasy universe, can be completly different than our real life views on the matter, and so taking our real life views about those subjects are not relevant to what those subjects are in this fantasy universe.
Of course, there are sometime similarities but it is just that, similarities.

I understand what you are saying, but if I may, I would like to point out that though warcraft is a fantasy setting it is created by people in real life and so relfects certain aspects of it. Nevertheless, you are not incorrect when you say that what is immoral in real life might be viewed as moral in a fantasy setting (in a subjective sense), but that does not mean that objectively that something is moral. That is, when we interpret a story whatever morality present in it should be viewed in the light of objective truth.

I fear, however, that I am once again treading into the argument that I very recently had with Nephalim (and might even continue if I were to directly reply). It is not that I am unable to continue arging about this (the argument over subjective and objective perspectives) but that I do not wish to fill this thread with an argument that is not desired. So with all due respect, I shall withdraw.

Nephalim

21-11-04, 02:54 PM

Don't know if anyone brought this up, because it's a tiny tiny detail, but in World of Warcraft, BOTH moons are in the night sky, per their one mention in Lord of the Clans. I could never get a screenshot encompassing both of them, as they're on opposite ends of the sky, but I was happy to see them, to say the least.

yunn

21-11-04, 03:22 PM

And since Nazjatar is supposedly in the middle of the Great Sea,
Not really relevant to anything, but one cannot get to the Nazjatar (middle of the Great Sea) in WoW. I've tried it.

Screenshots (http://www.geocities.com/yunn_yunn/wow.html)

Though I was in fact hoping to swim to Lordaeron from the Echo Isles... :lol:

Nephalim

21-11-04, 03:40 PM

Clarification: you can't SWIM to Nazjatar.

yunn

21-11-04, 06:44 PM

You mean Nazjatar is in WoW, code and all? Or maybe it already is, just that I haven't been following the WoW developments faithfully enough... :(

Nephalim

22-11-04, 12:47 PM

Nah, I don't mean anything. In fact, I'd probably be generally surprised to see Nazjatar in the final cut. But I do recall seeing ruins housing portals and naga statues, is all. I realize that's not as conclusive as it could be, I'm just not discounting anything.

Lord Kil'jaeden

24-11-04, 10:22 AM

A screenshot there (http://img129.exs.cx/img129/6271/alcaz10.jpg) to confirm he is alive :)

And this (http://img129.exs.cx/img129/701/statue.jpg) statue can be noticed in some Naga zones.

Reign of Kalos

24-11-04, 10:31 AM

A screenshot there (http://img129.exs.cx/img129/6271/alcaz10.jpg) to confirm he is alive :)

And this (http://img129.exs.cx/img129/701/statue.jpg) statue can be noticed in some Naga zones.
Where on earth did you find him? Well done indeed!

Kingcrazygenius

24-11-04, 10:35 AM

Damn, that is a fine looking naga. I'd like to meet the woman who modeled for that masterpiece.

WarDragon

24-11-04, 11:56 AM

Damn, that is a fine looking naga. I'd like to meet the woman who modeled for that masterpiece.
My best guess? The Empress, mid-mutation.

It also bears a certain resemblence to Kali, Hindu goddess of death; coincidence? I think not.

Nephalim

24-11-04, 12:24 PM

Well, considering the naga themselves are derived from Hindu myth, I find pretty much any naga reminiscent of some Hindu god or goddess.

Reign of Kalos

24-11-04, 01:22 PM

This is going to sound dumb, but they somewhat remind me of tombraider 3... The lost temple, those statues. Ghosts from my past youth when playing "The best of 1998".

Diskordjah

25-11-04, 02:16 AM

Im actually thinking that statue could be something more recent that Aszara: see, I encountered it in the Blackfathom Deeps when I was there, and the Deeps shouldnt have been occupied by naga that long since its right there in Ashenvale and the Nelfs oughta have noticed em before RoC in that case.

Kingcrazygenius

25-11-04, 07:13 AM

Well as long as Azshara is still beautiful I'm happy. Last thing I wanna see is some abomination of a creature with a bunch of jewelery.

Nephalim

25-11-04, 01:48 PM

Now this might mean nothing, I admit, but it might not.

The voice in the World introduction, who seems to be observing the world from the sidelines, is also the voice of Maiev.

Now before you all say it, yes I know that Blizzard reuses their voice actors extensively and it's occurred to me that that this might simply be the same woman being used again. I don't think that Kerrigan is Kashya reincarnated.

But if you wouldn't mind indulging me, let's assume for a moment that the voice on the opening IS supposed to be Maiev. Would anyone care to hazard a guess as to what that might mean?

Kingcrazygenius

25-11-04, 04:42 PM

Kashya and Kerrigan are the same voice? Wow, I never would have guessed.

It could entail that Maiev has transcended ordinary existance.

WarDragon

25-11-04, 05:18 PM

Or just that she's no longer bats*** insane (and therefore has likely lost the Shadow Orb, which could lead to a whole discussion in and of itself), and has taken a long, hard look at current events.

Nephalim

25-11-04, 05:57 PM

Diskordjah

26-11-04, 02:38 AM

But if you wouldn't mind indulging me, let's assume for a moment that the voice on the opening IS supposed to be Maiev. Would anyone care to hazard a guess as to what that might mean?

maybe she's truly turned into an avatar of justice, and is therefore the only one able to see things objectively?

Kingcrazygenius

26-11-04, 07:43 AM

But she was all about vengeance, not justice. Though if one was the physical manifestation of vengeance they would also be able to see objectively, because everyone wants vengeance...

...for Zuljin.

Mark Romaneck

26-11-04, 01:26 PM

Maybe, good observation Neph.

Maiev is (as far as we know) in the outland right, and so is Illidan. maybe she died, but her vengeance is something that not even death can stop

xShadowleavesx

26-11-04, 03:55 PM

Just for the people who haven't seen Bloodmages yet...

http://img75.exs.cx/img75/8089/Drazial.jpg

Cerebral_009

27-11-04, 06:43 AM

No, no, no, I'm sorry, that's bullcrap. Maybe if we had come upon this information earlier, but for Maiev's entire character to be defined by some obscure detail uncovered after the fact is either total bull or totally lame.
I disagree quite vehemently... so it's a good job this is a discussion forum. Just because no big deal was made of the orb in TfT, doesn't mean to say that it needn't play a huge part in current, or even past, events.

Let's look at the history of the Night Elves prior to RoC.... oh, that's right... there wasn't any! We were all free to assume that the High Elves of the alliance in WC2 were indigenous to the locality of the human lands... not to mention the complete omission of an entire continent.

Maive, as we know her, was quite, quite sane until the third mission... until she picked up the first part of the orb. A tad zealous, maybe, but all good cops are a little zealous. A non pluse cop really isn't a terribly effective deterrent, is it?

My point being that, just because the fact came from an RPG book after the event, doesn't justify calling it Bull. I'm well aware of the two main inconsistencies to date, but even you, Lore Master Nephalim, have quoted RPG content as gospel....

Kingcrazygenius

27-11-04, 07:00 AM

Besides, its not like her whole character is defined by this orb. Even before the orb she was the zealous persuiter of Illidan. If, say, I was the one being manipulated by the orb of shadows I, like Maiev, would basically be a more sinister and less tolorable version of myself.

All in all the orb isn't that huge a detail, though I admit we've no way of figuring out what she would have done had she never gotten the orb.

Nephalim

27-11-04, 09:01 AM

I'm well aware of the two main inconsistencies to date, but even you, Lore Master Nephalim, have quoted RPG content as gospel....
I know I have, but I have challenged certain aspects of its content multiple times as well.

This is COMPLETELY different from just new lore that addresses the past. This is new information made to address events that we witnessed, and influences how that's to be interpreted. It means that we were not completely informed while watching those events for the first time, and that means we couldn't adequately judge what's going on, and for those who have yet to read the RPG (or who have never to read it) they still can't.

Here's my major problem: The orb wasn't the only thing that happened in the third mission. The loss of Naisha and many of the other watchers took a heavy toll, and her frustrations with Tyrande, given their history, are perfectly in character. Then, when Furion allows Illidan to escape, Maiev feels - justifiably so - that the night elves have betrayed her.

However, now that the orb is becoming something that influences character, we have to second guess her behaviour entirely. This seems like a ploy to separate the characters into some binary opposites that Warcraft seems happy to discard, and I am happy to see them discarded. Originally, Maiev was, like many other characters, purely a victim of circumstance, where all the characters involved have perfectly legitimate reasons for the actions they make, but those actions heavily oppose each other. Throwing the orb into the mix would allow people to rule out Maiev as another victim of corruption, rendering her choices obselete.

I liken this to the situation on Theramore. You can easily identify with everyone involved, right? I mean, the orcs do have a history with Daelin, so in his mind he's protecting his people. Jaina may vouch for them all she wants, but he's right when he says that she wasn't there. He saw what happened to Stormwind and Lordaeron, and wanted to make sure that the same thing never happened again. On the other hand, Thrall isn't just going to roll over and let his people be slaughtered over a guilty conscience for the previous generation's sins, and Jaina, of course, is caught in the middle. However, if we came upon information that Daelin had some magic talisman that amplified his hatred or something, then we can dismiss him.

The same thing is happening to Maiev, and I think her character deserves better than this. You're right of course, Cerebral, this could end up being canon, but I'm hoping it's among the trivial details in the RPG that are ignored once these things come back into play. So I stand by my original statement. If it's just some creative indulgence on the part of Arthaus, then it's bull, and if it's not, then it's lame.

Inquisistor7

27-11-04, 11:09 AM

If the orb is indeed the cause of Maiev's extreme zeal then it is also necessary to absolve some of Gul'dan's guilt. He wielded it too did he not? Certainly he was an ambitious fellow, but if he were being affected by that thing then aspects of his character become blurred. It raises a lot of questions.

To be frank, I think that orb, if it plays as big a role as has been contended, hurts Warcraft; it makes people victims of corruption (as Neph says) instead of making them responsible for their own actions.

Kingcrazygenius

27-11-04, 01:34 PM

The orb was forged by the shadow council, and thus I feel they can be held fully accountable for their vile actions.

Rowan Seven

27-11-04, 06:47 PM

The orb was forged by the shadow council, and thus I feel they can be held fully accountable for their vile actions.

Don't forget how ruthless and power-hungry Gul'dan was either. I wouldn't put utilizing the orb even if he was fully aware of its possibly corrupting influence past him.

So I stand by my original statement. If it's just some creative indulgence on the part of Arthaus, then it's bull, and if it's not, then it's lame.

I'm content to take the compromise position of the Shadow Orb being 'one factor among many' until more is known one way or another.

Nephalim

27-11-04, 06:54 PM

I'm content to take the compromise position of the Shadow Orb being 'one factor among many' until more is known one way or another.I just see it as unecessary. The only thing that would merit this information would be that they're planning some significant role in the story for it. And if it doesn't come into play, then it doesn't really make any difference. So then why add it?

Rowan Seven

27-11-04, 07:05 PM

I just see it as unecessary. The only thing that would merit this information would be that they're planning some significant role in the story for it. And if it doesn't come into play, then it doesn't really make any difference. So then why add it?

Well, maybe Arthaus mentioned it for the benefit of the D&D players who might want to go after such a powerful artifact. Cursed relics that grant extraordinary power at a great cost can make for good, long-term storyline tools. As it is, I don't expect the Warcraft RPG to match up perfectly with the Warcraft RTS/World of Warcraft or vice-versa because they use different mediums so if there's a difference or element that seems out of place in one or the other I have a tendency to shrug it off as a gameplay convention.

Lord Kil'jaeden

28-11-04, 06:57 PM

I noticed this strange event.

Have you already heard of Ras Frostwhisper ?
It was one of the possible name of the Lich hero in warcraft 3.

In the WoW storyline, Ras Frostwhisper is running the Scholomance laboratory. If you visit this place, the player can kill him and then can take some objects this lich can drop, like every dungeon boss/semi boss.

But, why am i talking about Ras Frostwhisper ?
It is because unlike some dungeon boss, once you will kill him , you will notice that he will come back in the -storyline- (i am not talking about simple respawn setting that is there to please the player wanting to kill the same monster again and again), you are just not able to destroy him at this point of the story.

And it is where an interesting event is coming.
(unfortunately the guy who took them has exceeded his website bandwith so no more screenshots of that event)
In that text Neriad and Kronos are 2 players.
Read the text to find out something that can open a lot of perspectives regarding the warcraft undead state (along with some other interesting infos).

Magistrate Marduke informed Neriad that to truly destroy the lich, Ras Frostwhisper, she must first cause Frostwhisper to return to his mortal form and then kill him. Marduke knew how to cause the transformation to take place, but the one thing he was missing was an object from Ras Frostwhisper's former life. That is, a "keepsake of remembrance." Obtaining one would be no small task, for undead sentient beings such as Frostwhisper typically attempt to destroy all remnants of his or her previous life in order to prevent such a transformation from taking place, according to Marduke.

So, Magistrate Marduke asked Neriad to go to Ras Frostwhisper's former home city of Stromgarde and find an item that might in some way be linked to Ras Frostwhisper's former life. He does not say what such an item might be or where in the city such an item might be found. It was up to Neriad and any other adventurers doing the quest to find the item themselves.

Kronos and Neriad flew over to the Arathi Highlands and entered the city of Stromgarde. It is a city in the midst of a brutal three faction war. The Alliance, the ogres, and the Syndicate each control approximately one-third of the city. The inhabitants are all elite mobs, so it's a kind of "outdoor dungeon" that normally requires sizeable party to venture into. This is especially true on the PvP server, since both Horde and Alliance adventurers enter the city to complete quests. Since the city is not an instance, it can be a madhouse free-for-all as everyone runs into each other while trying to complete their quests. (This can be both a fun and frustrating aspect of questing in Stromgarde).

But luckily for us, both the mobs in the city and the majority of players who typically quest there are in the mid-to-high level 30's. So Kronos and I (and Berilac who joined us later), as level 60 characters, could walk around the city pretty much unmolested.

Hmmm... where should we start looking? We weren't told what the keepsake looked like or where in the city it was. Thinking like a game developer, I reasoned that that probably meant that whatever the keepsake was, it was probably in some obvious landmark location. I suggested that we try looking in the central keep first, but Kronos said that he was going to check the ogre tower first.

Kronos: FOUND IT!!!!
Kronos: top of the ogre tower

In hindsight, it was a good guess. After all, Ras Frostwhisper was a mage in his former life, and the ogre tower has that "mage tower" architecture that can be seen in many locations throughout the world.
I raced to the top of the ogre tower, and found... nothing.

Neriad: Is the keepsake a mob drop?
Kronos: no, it's a book
Kronos: appears right here
Kronos: gm says it's spawning

I waited a bit longer, but the book didn't respawn. I left to check a couple other places but returned to the top of the ogre tower every few minutes only to find that the book hadn't respawned there. Kronos and Berilac posted some messages on the Blizzard forums, asking for clues on where the keepsake spawns, but since so few people had actually followed the quest series to this point, we only got a couple of non-specific responses. The one thing we did get out of the responses, though, was the confirmation that the keepsake can spawn in multiple locations, so camping one location (like the top of the ogre tower) wasn't going to do any good.

I still clung to my belief that the keepsake had to spawn in landmark locations, though, and the fact that it had spawned that one time at the top of the ogre tower only reinforced that belief. I thoroughly checked the central keep, which is in Syndicate hands, three times, and I also checked the chapel and mausoleum in the Alliance area several times. I then started checking some of the second tier landmark buildings (inns and other such buildings that hadn't been burned to the ground).

Finally, in desperation, I embarked on a systematic search of every square inch of the sprawling city, starting with the Alliance area where I was at the time and then moving on to the Syndicate sector. As I was completing my search of the Syndicate section of the city, Kronos called out that he'd found the keepsake in a chimney in a ruined building in the ogre section of the city -- naturally, the last place I was going to look.

It took me two hours of searching to find the keepsake, far too long for such a quest, but that's not really the fault of the game designers. It took me that long, because I kept holding onto my belief that the keepsake had to be in some landmark location. If I had known that it could be found in a chimney in the middle of a ruined house, I would've started my systematic search of the city earlier and found the keepsake much quicker. So far, the only reports on the location of the keepsake seem to be in ogre and Syndicate areas, so if you're looking for the keepsake yourself, try those areas first. (I gather that the chimney of an inn in the Syndicate section of the city is another popular spawn location).

Having finally found our Keepsake of Remembrances, we returned to Magistrate Marduke who then told us to take it to Leonid Barthalomew the Revered, an undead dissenter of the Scourge, who is now loyal to the cause of the Argent Dawn. Barthalonmew then told us to take our keepsakes to the location where Ras Frostwhisper cut his own throat and where the Lich King turned Frostwhisper into a lich. (Really, I think Blizzard should look into creating an instance populated by fluffy bunnies who just want to cuddle and do nice things for people). This spot was called Menethil's Gift, a pentagram located deep within the Scourge city of Stratholme.

Easy enough. But, uh, there's one problem. Where the heck was this pentagram? Kronos, Berilac, and I scratched our heads trying to remember where the thing was. We had each done many Stratholme runs, so we figured we had to have seen it. Kronos thought that it might be somewhere in the section of the city with the ziggurats. I thought there might have been a pentagram on the floor of the main boss's chamber in the Scarlet Crusade section of the city. (The Scarlet Crusade boss turns out to be a demon in disguise, so it wasn't a crazy idea). We asked around, but no one had a definitive answer on where the pentagram might be. Gee, one would think demonic runes would stand out more in a game like this.

Berilac had joined us originally to do a Scholomance run with us, so it would have been rude to delay that any further. We recruited some more people, headed off, and put the search for Menethil's Gift on hold. However, we did finally get a response from some friends who were running Stratholme that there definitely was not a pentagram in the Scarlet Crusade's boss's chambers, so that idea was scratched.

I kept asking around later, however, and I finally got a definitive response that there were some strange markings in the Baron's chamber in Stratholme. I hitched a ride with a group raiding Stratholme to check it out. One of the nice things about being a priest is that one never has a shortage of opportunities to go on instance runs.

We killed the Baron (a.k.a. the Death Knight), and sure enough, right in the middle of his chamber was Menethil's Gift. I don't know about you, but that sure doesn't look like a pentagram to me. However, it does say "[PH]" (placeholder), so maybe the art team is still working on it.

I placed the keepsake on Menethil's Gift, and the Keepsake of Remembrance turned into a Soulbound Keepsake. (The text reads: "The soul of the fallen clings to that which represents its former life and transforms the item into a soulbound keepsake.") A new quest appeared that asked me to return the keepsake to Barthalomew the Revered who then told me to take it to Magistrate Marduke. Great, why couldn't I have cut out the middle man and just gone to Magistrate Marduke in the first place?

Anyway, Magistrate Marduke then told me that there was one task remaining. I had to enter Scholomance, find Ras Frostwhisper, use the soulbound keepsake to return him to his human form, and then kill him once and for all.

[...]
Neriad: We meet again, Frostwhisper, and this time I am the lich!

Ras Frostwhisper: You are?

Neriad: Not really. It just seemed like the thing to say.

Ras Frostwhisper: Oh, well, you can't win, Neriad. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.

Neriad: Oh, yeah? Well, I have THIS!

Neriad: Um, give me a few seconds will you? It's this whole channeling thing. I'm sure you understand. These soulbound keepsakes are so complicated.

/Ras Frostwhisper returns to his human form/

Ras Frostwhisper: NO! THIS CANNOT BE!

And in a straight-forward almost anticlimactic battle, Ras Frostwhisper was vanquished.

I wonder if this can be done to some other undead creatures, a kind of solution to save some plagued ones ?