The -Evil- Sylvanas

[Cerebral_009]

O.K, I know we've had this discussion a couple of times, but there's some new faces here and I want another discussion 'cause were very low on meaningful threads, so here we go...

Sylvanas is a villan, agreed. She is also full of vengence and hate, agreed. And she's also undead. But the point that I'm going to make is... does that make her evil?

Her actions in the Frozen Throne campaigns are all not in the least reprehensible. The majority of things she kills are undead, the humans that she kills were undead slaves or bandits... or Gartithos who is much worse than a bandit.

So. Does Sylvanas Windrunner really deserve the title... 'evil'?

:y-mm:

[A-Thousand-Lies]

I really fail to see good and evil, especially in such a diverse game as this.

It's a matter of perspective.

[Purplebeard]

I believe she's in the process of turning evil. At first she only goes after those that turned her into an undead slave, but now, influenced by Varimathras, she's turning into a monster.

[WarDragon]

Considering that her ultimate goal is to wipe out every living creature on Azeroth, I'd say yes. Going undead has rendered her completely insane.

[Diskordjah]

umh, them humans that were slaves to the undead she later turned into HER slaves to reach a selfish goal, namely conquest of Lordaeron. she's evil.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Yeah, I'd say she's pretty evil. If you are going to try to say she isn't then why not say Ner'zhul isn't really evil, or that Arthas isn't.

[Cerebral_009]

Yeah, I'd say she's pretty evil. If you are going to try to say she isn't then why not say Ner'zhul isn't really evil, or that Arthas isn't.
My argument is that, at least in TfT, her actions weren't all that "bad". I wholeheartdly agree that in WoW has has become a monster... the whole "plague to destroy everyone alive" concept can't be anything but nasty.

But, Disko', is using a small army of existing slaves to overthrow a growing evil empire of undeath such a bad thing?

Soley by thier actions in TfT, I see little difference between Maive and Sylvanas...

[Kingcrazygenius]

But, Disko', is using a small army of existing slaves to overthrow a growing evil empire of undeath such a bad thing?

The fact remains she robbed those humans and ogres of their free will just to achieve her own ends. Ends that aren't exactly wholesome themselves.

Maiev and Sylvanas are quite different also. Maiev's quest didn't lead to ogres and people being inslaved and turned into soldiers. All of Maiev's helpers were Watchers, and being watchers they knew full well the possible consequences of helping Maiev. No one was used against their free will with Maiev. Do NOT try comparing them.

[Cerebral_009]

Watch your capitalisation with me, demi-mortal.

We seem to have flogged this one out as far as it'll go. I got no come back - she's evil.

[Kingcrazygenius]

If you were Cerebral_007 or below you'd have my respect :sinister:

[Karsail]

evil guys like arthas and sylvanus are cooler than the weak good guys.
evil guys are cooler.

[g00d4n0thing]

Warcraft isn't a romance. There isn't much for definate Good and Evil. It is an interesting concept, though. Taking things that are partly evil or evil anyway and using them to destroy a greater evil. Kind of like King Arthur's Might and Right, I'd say....I wouldn't say she was 'evil', either.

[Mark Romaneck]

Evil is nothing but just a mere perspective, that is all that can be say

Now Sylvanas is doing foul acts, she is killing anything in her path.

and that is definately not something that you could describe as good

[Kingcrazygenius]

Evil is nothing but just a mere perspective, that is all that can be say

Warcraft isn't a romance. There isn't much for definate Good and Evil.

I disagree. In Warcraft world at least I'd say there are pretty objective stances on what is good and what is evil, and more specifically who is good and who is evil.

[Mark Romaneck]

Evil is a point of view

while burning witches is seen as pure stupidity today, it was a holy office to those who practiced it in those days

So Sylvanas may think that What she does is not pure evil
Yet im shure that the Alliance differs in that opinion

We might as well say that Rexxar is evil, since he killed proudmoore
But then Again Proudmoore had it coming, he searched for conflict and found it.
so you see now that Evil is a perspective, a point of view, not something concrete

[Kingcrazygenius]

But we're not seeing things from the views of the characters in the game. We have a gods eye view of it all, and we can safely say what is evil and what isn't. The thing about fantasy worlds is that people outside of the world can be objective about who is evil and who is good.

[SuRReAL OrC]

If you consider planned genocide of the world evil, yes she is. Unless you happen to be Osama bin Laden, posting in this thread, you probably do. Case closed. :y-thumbsu

[Mark Romaneck]

as always Surrreal´s comentaries are sooo deep

She is not evil to the one that posted the thread, it may be a majority to those who play, but for him, she was just fighting to survive

[SuRReAL OrC]

And Osama's just fighting for what he believes in. So was Hitler. You call them evil. You want a shallow post, Mark, read one of your own.

[Kingcrazygenius]

We seem to have flogged this one out as far as it'll go. I got no come back - she's evil.

You were saying Marky?

[g00d4n0thing]

And Osama's just fighting for what he believes in. So was Hitler. You call them evil. You want a shallow post, Mark, read one of your own.

Hmmm, well, if the mass murder of civilians and the torture of one's own people isn't considered evil, I don't know what is.

[SuRReAL OrC]

That's what I'm sayin', G4N!!! Mark says that Sylvanas isn't evil, when that is what she is planning to do!!!

[g00d4n0thing]

Well, this can't really be proven, but it kind of seemed to me like Sylvanas was winging it..never had a sure-fire plan of what to do after dealing with the dreadlords, it seems to me.

[Mark Romaneck]

who is marky?
and I wasnt saying I was tiping
whoever that statement of cerebral gives me 2 coclusion
1-He entered here with a concept and came out with an other
2-That means we can brainwash him
4-Maybe I can make him pay my bills

ok, so maybe Sylvanas is evil, after all....

[g00d4n0thing]

I disagree. In Warcraft world at least I'd say there are pretty objective stances on what is good and what is evil, and more specifically who is good and who is evil.

Well, there may be some ideas of good and evil, but a lot is up to controversy. Undead against everyone is obvious, yes, but what about the other little squabbles?

There aren't really enough romantic elements for Warcraft to be considered a romance.

[Kingcrazygenius]

The few iffy things are not abundant enough to disqualify the fact that objective good and evil do exist in Warcraft.

[pbot]

evil guys like arthas and sylvanus are cooler than the weak good guys.
evil guys are cooler.

Actually, its just the opposite. A weak hero is much more interesting than a stronger villain. When Arthas and Kael fought, Kael told Arthas "You've taken away everything that I've ever loved." What makes the humans in Warcraft so interesting, compelling and potent, is that they've suffered so much evil and wrong but they're just not strong enough right now to combat that evil head on. So when Arthas and Kael fight, it makes me like Kael all the more, because I know he'll lose to Arthas, but he has to stand and fight anyway. The humans are far more interesting, because they are so much more emotionally potent. We all knew Lordaeron, and now we understand just how painful it is for the refugees to lament over it, and we sympathize with rebels like the Scarlett Brigands (or whatever they're called.) It has always been the strength of Metzen that universes that he creates do not present a world of good overcoming evil or evil overcoming good but rather, a world of maintaining "good" values in the face of evil.

[Aj Windshadow]

The actions many people do in the warcraft world may be considered evil acts by us but they all have their own reasons to do them.
Some react to them unwisely or are too zealous in their efforts or a somewhat selfish.
So they end up bieng evil, Arthas Illidan Grom are all examples of these and dont forget Tyrande...
None are white or Black they all have sides of grey perhaps except a few handful.

[Cerebral_009]

whoever that statement of cerebral gives me 2 coclusion... blah blah, something about brainwashing and me paying your bills.

No. I have not changed my point of view: I maintain that, judging by her actions in the TfT campaigns, she became evil afterwards and out of, almost, necessity... a bit like Maive - their actions and their drives were inserperable and led them both down dark paths.

It would be quite a challange to brain wash me, and I'd only pay your bills if you were particulary attarctive and giving me head on a regular basis. I can confidently say that the later is untrue, and the former is likey even less accurate.

About Maive...

Accourding to Magic and Mayhen (RPG book) it was the Shadow Orb that pushed her over the edge, just like it pushed Guldan over the edge... it was the orb that drove him to believe he could weild Sergares' powers and control the legion. It was the orb that made Maive recklessly pursue Illidan to Outland. It plays upon ones strongest dark dersires and makes their passion an adiction.

I conceed that Sylvanas had no orbish intervention, the curse of undeath and the destruction of all that she loved was sufficent to tip her over the edge.

She is evil, yes. But I'd call it lawful evil, justifable evil. Yes, Like the Scarlet crusade. You can perhaps sympathise more easily with them, as they are all alive, but to my mind basing it on that argument is flawed - surely the dead ones have more reason to be pissed off?

[Kingcrazygenius]

Maiev was warped by the shadow orb?

AWESOME!

[g00d4n0thing]

Mmm? That's interesting, I wasn't aware of that fact.

Then I guess Maiev's shadow orb was a lot like Arthas' frostmourne..

[Reign of Kalos]

In a way yes, but not really.

Arthas let himself go over the edge so to speak, and be used eventually to do exactly what he set out to prevent. On Maiev it simply focused her on the goal of eliminating her prey. Not quite a complete reversal of intentions, certainly not on the level of manipulation that was going on with the Arthas example.

[Mark Romaneck]

I think that with or without the orb, Maiev would have still blindly pursued Illidan

Illidan is her life, im not meaning that she is in love with him, but she needs Illidan to live, Maiev existence is meaningless without Illidan, Maiev life depends on Illidan, its the core of Maiev´s life.

And Gul Dan was already on the edge, even from Draenor I think...say were did he got that orb anyway?

Cerebral, if you had to oportunity to look at my incredibly handsome face, you would pay my bills.

And while were at it, is The Frozen King Arthas/Ner´Zhul evil? I mean he just wanted to be free, and now that he is, well what are his next goals in his unlife? to kill everyone, or to just be...free, probably the first one, but hey we dont know for shure

And KCG you could show some respect to the new posters you know

[Reign of Kalos]

I think that with or without the orb, Maiev would have still blindly pursued Illidan

Illidan is her life, im not meaning that she is in love with him, but she needs Illidan to live, Maiev existence is meaningless without Illidan, Maiev life depends on Illidan, its the core of Maiev´s life.

And Gul Dan was already on the edge, even from Draenor I think...say were did he got that orb anyway?

Cerebral, if you had to oportunity to look at my incredibly handsome face, you would pay my bills.

And while were at it, is The Frozen King Arthas/Ner´Zhul evil? I mean he just wanted to be free, and now that he is, well what are his next goals in his unlife? to kill everyone, or to just be...free, probably the first one, but hey we dont know for shure

And KCG you could show some respect to the new posters you know
Umm... Why not read the tooltip pn the shadow orb? That tells you about it's history. Shadow council made it.

[Mark Romaneck]

damn why didnt I think about that before....

and while were at it...who is the Shadow Coucil, the Warlocks that aided Gul´Dan?

[Reign of Kalos]

damn why didnt I think about that before....

and while were at it...who is the Shadow Coucil, the Warlocks that aided Gul´Dan?
Please read up the warcraft manuals. They were the inner workings of the Horde before the shamistic rebirth under Thrall. They manipulated all orcs into fighting for thier cause, which was also the goals of thier demonic patrons AKA the invasion of Azeroth and the destruction of the races residing in that word. When Ogrim Doomhammer came to power he pretty much wiped out the shadow council, along with one of Gul'dan's best pawns, Blackhand. Later he regreted letting the elder warlock live, as Gul'dan made a break for the tomb, taking away half of his fighting force, who were then chased down by Doomhammer's loyal troops and either eliminated by them, or were the chosen few to enter the tomb itself, and got torn apart by it's guardians.

[Lord Kil'jaeden]

Yes, Like the Scarlet crusade. You can perhaps sympathise more easily with them, as they are all alive, but to my mind basing it on that argument is flawed - surely the dead ones have more reason to be pissed off?

Judging by the fact Balnazzar is disguised (shapeshifting) as a high ranked member of the Scarlet Crusade, i highly doubt anyone can even think their cause is ultimately good and have this as a reason of sympathy.

To have sympathy for the Scarlet Crusade is forgetting (or just not knowing) who is Balnazzar.

Maybe at first the Scarlet Crusade cause was good and deserved a kind of sympathy in the good versus evil battle raging in warcraft lands, when Balnazzar was not in (if he was not already there at the creation of the Scarlet Crusade of course) and was reported dead after the Varimathras "supposed" betrayal.
But now ultimately their cause will serve Balnazzar (and maybe higher evils) own cause.

[Rowan Seven]

Hi everyone. I apologize for not posting lately. I've been busy with other things such as college and, for a pleasant change, a good real-world social life.

Anyway, in my opinion, Sylvanas is evil because of what I perceive her motivation to be rather than any specific action of hers. The possessions, the betrayals, and even the plague can all be rationalized to an extent, and if her goal is the survival of the Forsaken and herself then the evil label might be questionable. However, since I believe her ultimate objective to be vengeance against the Lich King, from my viewpoint Sylvanas is abandoning her morality and embracing utterly ruthless means to achieve a dark end, which most would probably argue is "evil".

I think that with or without the orb, Maiev would have still blindly pursued Illidan

While I do agree that Maiev likely would've still pursued Illidan, I doubt she would've done so with such obsessiveness and disregard for other concerns without the Shadow Orb. It changed her to the point where "all other considerations were secondary," (Magic & Mayhem, pg. 158) if you accept the RPG information as factual.

[Mark Romaneck]

thanks for the info o great Far Seer Kalos

Damn were is Neph when I need him, has anyone see him lately? I would like him to quote me that dark orb page

[yunn]

What he said about SylvanasThe ends justify da means?

[SuRReAL OrC]

Bally boy is alive!? I gotta start reading teh lore threads again......

[pbot]

Wait a sec, didn't Sylvanus specifically state to Detheroc, I turned one of your brothers to my side, and ripped another of your brothers to bloody shreds, I wonder how you will fair?

Correct me if I'm wrong. . .
rip to bloody shreds = dead

[IlidanStormrage]

No no no, she said that to Balnaazar. How he survived and managed to infiltrate the Eastern Crusade (We can't say for sure that he holds any influence in Silverpine and the rest of Western Lordaeron) is anyones guess.

And I too have been a little busy with real life, hence the lack of posts.

[Mark Romaneck]

by the way dont get to jumpy... Balnazzar is dead again

[Cerebral_009]

WTF!!! Lord K'J - that's big news. I had no idea.

Admitdly I've avoided the Lore Threads to prevent spoilers (I'll be among the first to buy WoW, I am truly devoted) .. but this new is.... well, huge!!

So the two biggest, nastiest forces in Lorderon (Kel'thazud's Scourge aside) are, more or less, under the Legions influence?

... taking the view point that Varamathris, for all his reteric, is, at best, only amused/impressed by Sylvanas, whilst ultimately serving his Legion Masters.

[Rowan Seven]

Admitdly I've avoided the Lore Threads to prevent spoilers (I'll be among the first to buy WoW, I am truly devoted) .. but this new is.... well, huge!!

I also once planned to avoid lore threads, but considering the discussions that take place in this forum it seemed likely that WoW lore would be mentioned outside of the lore thread and, well, to be honest I really wanted to read the thread.

The ends justify da means?

I really don't know the answer to that question, but ends and objectives can change the way observers view and perceive characters. If Sylvanas is fighting primarily for freedom and not for vengeance, we might not be so quick to classify her as "evil", at least of the unambiguous variety.

[Lord Kil'jaeden]

I am sorry, i did not tought before replying , as i was writing huge spoilers.
Unfortunately, i can't edit to delete what i wrote.
Again i am very sorry to have posted spoilers out of the Lore thread.

I will resist the need to reply like this next time to keep this spoiler content in the good place .

[Raistlin Majere]

I would put Sylvanas at a Chaotic Evil, while Arthas would be a Lawful Evil.

[WarDragon]

I would put Sylvanas at a Chaotic Evil, while Arthas would be a Lawful Evil.
That's interesting; the Manual of Monsters has them the other way around (at least, it infers that Arthas is CE, by listing the Lich King as such), while I myself would call them both LE.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Of course they are chaotic evil!

Slap them in the face with it and they still don't see it...

[SuRReAL OrC]

Where can I buy the Warcraft Manual of Monsters, it sounds really cool, I have the DnD one.....

[Rowan Seven]

Where can I buy the Warcraft Manual of Monsters, it sounds really cool, I have the DnD one.....

You could try an online bookstore such as Amazon, a local comic/hobby/D&D store, or order it off the official website at www.warcraftrpg.com

[LOTG]

My argument is that, at least in TfT, her actions weren't all that "bad". I wholeheartdly agree that in WoW has has become a monster... the whole "plague to destroy everyone alive" concept can't be anything but nasty.

But, Disko', is using a small army of existing slaves to overthrow a growing evil empire of undeath such a bad thing?

Soley by thier actions in TfT, I see little difference between Maive and Sylvanas...
I have come back from the grave to deliver this message:

"How many people does it take to become a tragedy, Admiral? One thousand? Ten thousand? A hundred thousand?"

-Cpt. Picard, (Star Trek: Insurrection).

goodbye everyone. I miss you.

-Conuai

[yunn]

May the Force be with us. Die, Trekkie scum!

:lol: Just joking, of course. :lol:

[Cerebral_009]

I have come back from the grave to deliver this message:

"How many people does it take to become a tragedy, Admiral? One thousand? Ten thousand? A hundred thousand?"

-Cpt. Picard, (Star Trek: Insurrection).

goodbye everyone. I miss you.

-Conuai
Well, in answer to Picard's question, it's 11.

[Reign of Kalos]

Well, in answer to Picard's question, it's 11.
I thought that it was 42...

[Raistlin Majere]

That's interesting; the Manual of Monsters has them the other way around (at least, it infers that Arthas is CE, by listing the Lich King as such), while I myself would call them both LE.
Meh, I have been at many campaign settings but I have never read the Manual of Monsters of Warcraft.

Just an educated guess from a seasoned AD&D Vet. :y-candle:

[ArPharazon]

I haven't fully examined this thread, but... Sylvanas has a plan to restart the Plague, betray the Horde, and conquer all of Lordaeron, Azeroth, and probably Kalimdor. And definitely Northrend. At least, that's what I could make out from the released lore about WoW. I'd say that makes her evil.

However, not only do I think Maiev stubborn, vain and annoying, she, a Warden of justice, should know better to let the innocent die, and lie about that, just to catch a fleeing villain. Her abandonment of Tyrande makes her more evil in my mind than Sylvanas.

And Arthas... well, he slew his father, brought utter ruin to Lordaeron, destroyed Quel'Thalas and the Sunwell, allowed the Demonic invasion, took control of the evillest forces in the world, and doesn't even have the decency to let people die peacefully. I hate him more than Maiev...

[Kingcrazygenius]

Tyrande killed a huge chunk of her Wardens to free a supervillain. From Maiev's viewpoint, and a few highly regarded people on this forum view's as well, Tyrande was a criminal and deserved no better.

[Reign of Kalos]

I haven't fully examined this thread, but... Sylvanas has a plan to restart the Plague, betray the Horde, and conquer all of Lordaeron, Azeroth, and probably Kalimdor. And definitely Northrend. At least, that's what I could make out from the released lore about WoW. I'd say that makes her evil.

However, not only do I think Maiev stubborn, vain and annoying, she, a Warden of justice, should know better to let the innocent die, and lie about that, just to catch a fleeing villain. Her abandonment of Tyrande makes her more evil in my mind than Sylvanas.

And Arthas... well, he slew his father, brought utter ruin to Lordaeron, destroyed Quel'Thalas and the Sunwell, allowed the Demonic invasion, took control of the evillest forces in the world, and doesn't even have the decency to let people die peacefully. I hate him more than Maiev...
Well to be fair to Arthas he didn't exactly do it without a whole load of help, not to mention the fact that his will and mind was completely overriden by this point. It would be very hard to pin the crimes on little more than a puppet, more so Ner'zul, the master. He is responsible for what Arthas does, as he can undoubtably tell him what not to do, and what to do.

Sylvanas is inventing her own form of plague, different from the original which ruined Lordaeron. It's designed to effect undead as well as the living, for one major difference. To what it'll actually do is uncertain, but one aim is to wipe out all living forms of life. It is most definitely not the same as the Lich King loyalists' plague of undeath.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Ner'zhul just pushed him. I feel that much of the evil Arthas did was of his own free will. Granted that will was twisted, but Arthas is not a totally different person. All Ner'zhul did was take his darkest desires for power and amplify them.

[Reign of Kalos]

Ner'zhul just pushed him. I feel that much of the evil Arthas did was of his own free will. Granted that will was twisted, but Arthas is not a totally different person. All Ner'zhul did was take his darkest desires for power and amplify them.
Indeed. Many of his actions did gain him much importance. But others cannot be explained in such a way. What possible advantage to Arthas would there have been to have revived Kelly? That only detracted from his central role, no longer the only figurehead. And summoning the Legion lost him control of his own forces, plus most of his decisions. Power is worthless if you can't so anything, for the rest of Roc after the summoning Arthas was no longer leading the Scourge, and there was no way to tell if the Legion was ever going to fail, and give Arthas the opportunity to rise again. If power alone was the drive, there was no way Arthas would have done some of the things that he did.

[Kingcrazygenius]

It was a bit complicated. Arthas, though he retained his own twisted will, was still a willing servent of the Lich King. The Lich King knew he would be destroyed if he didn't comply with the Legion, and so hung that great power over Arthas as a bargaining tool for him to do as he was told.

Arthas has his free will, but its like Superman having his free will, but Luthor has Lois hostage. His choices aren't really choices at all.

[Reign of Kalos]

It was a bit complicated. Arthas, though he retained his own twisted will, was still a willing servent of the Lich King. The Lich King knew he would be destroyed if he didn't comply with the Legion, and so hung that great power over Arthas as a bargaining tool for him to do as he was told.

Arthas has his free will, but its like Superman having his free will, but Luthor has Lois hostage. His choices aren't really choices at all.
But by summoning the Legion wasn't he practically dooming himself? If the Legion didn't fail, and they almost didn't, it would have been the end for him, every other intelligent being on Azeroth, and his master? It was throwing too much to chance that they would fail wasn't it? But I suppose one would say that there wasn't much other options. Only it would be preferable to see Ner'zul die, and to live to potentially rise again, than to send you and your world willingly into death itself?

But it can go around for ever. The point was that he never really had that much say in what he was doing. I think we can establish that.

[Raistlin Majere]

Remember, the Lich KIng foresaw and had NASA type back up plans for the leagion.

What he did not forsee was Sylvanas jumping the band wagon.

[Kingcrazygenius]

He didn't see the future, he just had a conciousness expanded enough to see into everyone's mind, and manipulate people to his ends. He probably knew that Sylvanas would break free if he lost enough power, but things such as the Eye of Sargaras attack and other events distracted him, and by the time she got free it was too late to do anything about it all.

[Reign of Kalos]

Remember, the Lich KIng foresaw and had NASA type back up plans for the leagion.

What he did not forsee was Sylvanas jumping the band wagon.
What do you mean by 'NASA' type plans? The situation ended up completely outside his hands, he had little control at all. He was plain lucky that Archimonde fell due to overconfidence. If the Legion had arrived at the peak of mount Hyjal a matter of hours earlier it would have been all over. It's a fool hardy venrture to allow other people to make choices in the face of the odds of that battle, and believe with any real confidence that they are going to win. The Lich king had little or nothing to do with the overall defeat of the Hyjal attack. In the end it was down to the night elves and Furion. If it wasn't for him, then the world would have most certainly fell. A huge gamble, and a pretty stupid one. The Lich king certainly had no "Ultra advanced mega-plan" that saved the day.

[An evil person]

What do you mean by 'NASA' type plans? The situation ended up completely outside his hands, he had little control at all. He was plain lucky that Archimonde fell due to overconfidence. If the Legion had arrived at the peak of mount Hyjal a matter of hours earlier it would have been all over. It's a fool hardy venrture to allow other people to make choices in the face of the odds of that battle, and believe with any real confidence that they are going to win. The Lich king had little or nothing to do with the overall defeat of the Hyjal attack. In the end it was down to the night elves and Furion. If it wasn't for him, then the world would have most certainly fell. A huge gamble, and a pretty stupid one. The Lich king certainly had no "Ultra advanced mega-plan" that saved the day.

Actually,he did send Athas to Kalimdor to get Illidan to steal the Skull of Gul'dan,muderize Tichondrius and wreck a couple Demon Gates...dunno how much that helped in the end,tough.

[WarDragon]

Actually,he did send Athas to Kalimdor to get Illidan to steal the Skull of Gul'dan,muderize Tichondrius and wreck a couple Demon Gates...dunno how much that helped in the end,tough.

I believe he's got you there, Kalos. I seem to recall a concensus that Tichondrius' defeat may very well have tipped the battle in the NE's favor.

[Reign of Kalos]

I believe he's got you there, Kalos. I seem to recall a concensus that Tichondrius' defeat may very well have tipped the battle in the NE's favor.
I agree that this was changing. A benifit if you will. But the fact remains that the main bad guy wasn't even phased. If anything this should have kicked him out of complacency and take the battle to the frontlines himself. He would have gotten there earilier, and won.

The orcs also took out Mannoroth, and far better fighter and master of the pitlords. Should they be rewarded with the compliment of masterminding the Legion's downfall too? He would have had a change on the battlefield too. What if Thrall had been killed by that blow? The 'what if's' are endless.

At the battle of mount Hyjal it was down to others and thier plans, not old Ner'zul. Ultimately if they had chosen to do another plan, or try something else, it would have been a certain lose. The current plan that was used relied on buying time, Archimonde's arrogance and overconfidence.

And once again the lich knig would have been utterly screwed if Illidan had been left chained up. Too many variables to be left to chance for it to be a good and sound plan in my mind.