Should Turkey join the European Union?

[MrProAmerica]

Come next week, the European Council will decide on whether or not to start talks with Turkey about joining the EU over the next twenty years or so. I wonder what everybody's thoughts on this are. I put together some pros and cons and split them into four categories: Security, Human Rights, Economy and Integration. Please try to stay on topic when discussing.

Security

Pro: With Turkey joining, the EU would become a global player and could confront the USA with their own ideas on safety for example in the middle east. In addition to that, an EU membership would further push the reforms in Turkey. Otherwise, Turkey might orient itself more to the arabic-islamic world and cause a destabilization of the region.

Con: Turkey is already geostrategically involved as a NATO-partner. The turkish military is already a counterpart to religious and political fanatism. Increasing safety politics might also be done in a priviliged partnership instead of a full EU membership. Also, the EU would inherit lots of crisis-shaken areas with Turkey, making permanent crisis intervention mandatory.

Human Rights

Pro: EU membership will encourage Turkey to do more reforms. A denial might cause Turkey to fall back behind the Status Quo.

Con: Turkey still has not done enough to ensure every day human rights. Saying that Turkey is already well on its way to fulfilling the Copenhague criteria might slow down further reforms.

Economy

Pro: The billions in subvention needed to bring Turkey to the standard of other European nation are only about 0.1 to 0.2 percent of the EU gross national product. Turkey is currently in the state that Portugal was in when it joined the EU, forcing Turkey to further push structural and agricultural reforms.

Con: In ten years, with about 80 million people, Turkey will have the population of Germany or of all the ten new EU members combined. However it only possesses one sixth of Germany's economic power. About 15-30 billion Euros would have to flow into Turkey from EU members each year, without noticable reflux since Turkey is already integrated into the customs union.

Integration

Pro: The birth rate in Turkey is decreasing, therefore fear of over-immigration is not founded. The voting weight of Turkey in the EU council is negligible compared to all the other members, thus without coalitions Turkey is unable to vote against the will of the combined "Western" European nations. Allowing a mostly muslim country into the EU would proof that the EU is not a "christian club".

Con: While the birth rate is decreasing, it is still very high, and hundreds of thousands of immigrants each year would come, especially into Germany, worsening the unemployment situation. Concerning the already low and also decreasing birth rate in the rest of Europe, this might cause an Islamization and Poverization (word?) of the EU.


Well, that's it. I tried to keep it as neutral as possible. When discussing, please refer to the facts above and don't pull stuff out of your ass *cough undisputed1 cough*. Thank you and have fun!

[Ledge And]

Come next week, the European Council will decide on whether or not to start talks with Turkey about joining the EU over the next twenty years or so. I wonder what everybody's thoughts on this are. I put together some pros and cons and split them into four categories: Security, Human Rights, Economy and Integration. Please try to stay on topic when discussing.

Security

Pro: With Turkey joining, the EU would become a global player and could confront the USA with their own ideas on safety for example in the middle east. In addition to that, an EU membership would further push the reforms in Turkey. Otherwise, Turkey might orient itself more to the arabic-islamic world and cause a destabilization of the region.

Con: Turkey is already geostrategically involved as a NATO-partner. The turkish military is already a counterpart to religious and political fanatism. Increasing safety politics might also be done in a priviliged partnership instead of a full EU membership. Also, the EU would inherit lots of crisis-shaken areas with Turkey, making permanent crisis intervention mandatory.

Human Rights

Pro: EU membership will encourage Turkey to do more reforms. A denial might cause Turkey to fall back behind the Status Quo.

Con: Turkey still has not done enough to ensure every day human rights. Saying that Turkey is already well on its way to fulfilling the Copenhague criteria might slow down further reforms.

Economy

Pro: The billions in subvention needed to bring Turkey to the standard of other European nation are only about 0.1 to 0.2 percent of the EU gross national product. Turkey is currently in the state that Portugal was in when it joined the EU, forcing Turkey to further push structural and agricultural reforms.

Con: In ten years, with about 80 million people, Turkey will have the population of Germany or of all the ten new EU members combined. However it only possesses one sixth of Germany's economic power. About 15-30 billion Euros would have to flow into Turkey from EU members each year, without noticable reflux since Turkey is already integrated into the customs union.

Integration

Pro: The birth rate in Turkey is decreasing, therefore fear of over-immigration is not founded. The voting weight of Turkey in the EU council is negligible compared to all the other members, thus without coalitions Turkey is unable to vote against the will of the combined "Western" European nations. Allowing a mostly muslim country into the EU would proof that the EU is not a "christian club".

Con: While the birth rate is decreasing, it is still very high, and hundreds of thousands of immigrants each year would come, especially into Germany, worsening the unemployment situation. Concerning the already low and also decreasing birth rate in the rest of Europe, this might cause an Islamization and Poverization (word?) of the EU.


Well, that's it. I tried to keep it as neutral as possible. When discussing, please refer to the facts above and don't pull stuff out of your ass *cough undisputed1 cough*. Thank you and have fun!

As Turkey's economy improves there will be less outflow of immigration at same time as a declining birthrate.

Overrall the EU will have a hard time in the short run trying to pull up Turkey to the current EU standard but if they ever manage too its a big bonus. However, the Muslim world may resent the "economic domination of their Islamic brother Turkey" or some crap.

[Bullroarer]

If Turkey wants to escape poverty and become European, so be it.

[Abroughear1]

No because Turkey isn't part of Europe, therefore it shouldn't be part of the European Union. Turkey is in Asia. Other than that I couldn't care less.

[Kingcrazygenius]

I personally don't really care, but if it pisses people off then sure.

[Reign of Kalos]

No because Turkey isn't part of Europe, therefore it shouldn't be part of the European Union. Turkey is in Asia. Other than that I couldn't care less.
I don't think you know what you're talking about. In France, for example, there is no continental divide between Europe and Asia, it is seen as one big continent, with one singular word for it. This barrier "they aren't in Europe" doesn't even exist. The common defining factor for something to be European would be it's EU membership, thus if Turkey joined it would be a fully fledged European country.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Why would there be a continental devide in France? Russia maybe...

[VirtualKish]

The Ural mountain range is generally considered the border of Continental Europe.

[Abroughear1]

I don't think you know what you're talking about. In France, for example, there is no continental divide between Europe and Asia, it is seen as one big continent, with one singular word for it. This barrier "they aren't in Europe" doesn't even exist. The common defining factor for something to be European would be it's EU membership, thus if Turkey joined it would be a fully fledged European country.

Let me get this straight.....

Europe (the continent) existed for...ever, I guess...and been called Europe for the last fifteen of sixteen hundred years. Its boundaries were clearly defined: the Aral Mountains (I think- could be Ural) in Russia, the Black Sea, and the Mediterranean Sea. Turkey, for your information, lies across the Dardanelles from "classical" Europe. (The Dardanelles are the straits that join the Black and Med. Seas)

Please, people, this is elementary world geography.

If Europe and Asia are one big continent, why is part of it called Europe and part called Asia? Where is the dividing line between North and South America?

The European Union comes along, like 20 years ago, and suddenly they define who is and isn't European?

If France (I know, this will NEVER happen, but....) left the EU, would it still be a European nation? Yes, because it is on the European continent. If the European Union wants to become the Euro-Asian Union, more power to it, but an Asian country, in my opinion, has no business in a European Union.

Another thing...the relatively good economies of the rest of the EU would help boost Turkey's economy, BUT, on the other hand, Turkey's relatively poor economy will help drag down (very slightly, admittedly) the economies of the other European countries.





I personally don't really care, but if it pisses people off then sure.
:bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap:

[Slay]

Doesnt affect me at all. So I say we flip a coin.
-Slay

[Kingcrazygenius]

North and South America are on two distictly different tectonic plates, and it is only recently in geologic history that they started touching. I don't know if the same is true of Europe and Asia though.

[orillion213]

Go ahead and let them join. After all, they currently have the 10th biggest army in the world. Forgot what the others were though...

[mulratt]

Dont let Turkey in, but keep the talks alive so that they have an incentive to reform. Sam thing we did with China no? And now we're witnessing a de-privatisation of China. It's much more open to businesses right now. The growth there is insane. Whether you think that's good or not is open for debate.

I was in a financial institutions class this morning and we were talking about how 50 years from now, they'll explain the origins of the Euro is from some continent named Europe. The idea is that other countries will join in for the benefits. Israel is in line I was told.

[Ledge And]

Dont let Turkey in, but keep the talks alive so that they have an incentive to reform. Sam thing we did with China no? And now we're witnessing a de-privatisation of China. It's much more open to businesses right now. The growth there is insane. Whether you think that's good or not is open for debate.

I was in a financial institutions class this morning and we were talking about how 50 years from now, they'll explain the origins of the Euro is from some continent named Europe. The idea is that other countries will join in for the benefits. Israel is in line I was told.


I dont remember when we wanted to join the EU O_o

[Canadian Tire Money]

i don't remember a de-privatisation of china opening up the market :)

[Kingcrazygenius]

Do you non-Americans ever use the letter 'z'?

[Weyngott]

Yes we do, KCG. Hehe, some of us European also use these: ÆÅÁÈ. But anyways. Turkey will do anything for be a part, so I think it's ok. Why not?

[MrProAmerica]

Actually Turkey is in part on continental Europe. Istanbul even has a European and an Asian half, since the Bosporus is considered to be the dividing line.

[Canadian Tire Money]

Do you non-Americans ever use the letter 'z'?


to mizquote would be dangerouz

[Diskordjah]

No because Turkey isn't part of Europe, therefore it shouldn't be part of the European Union. Turkey is in Asia. Other than that I couldn't care less.

part of Turkey IS on europe though. though there is one thing I wonder about: Why is ISRAEL in the european song contest?

[Kingcrazygenius]

Because Israel gets to do whatever the hell they want apparently.

It's ok though, because heretics stay in burning tombs, and the violent...I can't ever remember what happens to them. Pool of boiling blood I think.

[Dark_psycherV28]

No.Turkey is not ready and it will take some time for it to be ready.They may be a democratic,but their culture ain't democratic at all and they don't fit in europe at all.You can expect Germany (with 4-5 million turkish immigrants living there to fully support em though).I can't support a nation where people don't respect human rights.Since i am Greek and forced to have them as neighbours i do know something more about Turkey.

[MrProAmerica]

I'm German and I'm the last person to want Turkey in the EU. However, there seems to be a huge difference in the behaviour of Turks in Germany and in Turkey. Apparently the turks living in Germany, especially the young ones, seem to be much bigger assholes and criminals than the ones in Turkey. So having more of them over here and easier is a big no-no for me...

[varulf]

the only thing turkey should join, is my dinner.
:lol: :lol: :lol:











omg, I'm so lame

[Bullroarer]

Is there not a slightly chance that having turkey make trade easier with Asian and middle eastern nations

[mulratt]

A little xenophobic no? Kinda like how Americans treat Mexicans. Oh boo-hoo they're stealing jobs and all. Well that's capitalism. When some one has it good, others people will flood it to even the advantage out.

Anyways, arent they jerks and in gangs and stuff because partly that's society has treated them? If you dont give them jobs and the same opportunity as other citizens, they'll end up that way. Of course, it's hard to support an ethnic group in that way.
It's much easier when the culture itself values education and hard work. But then again, Jews were becoming rich because of that and throughout the Middles Ages, Christians hated them for their wealth. Same thing with Asians soon I guess, since their economies are exploding.

Anyways, it just seems wrong to say that one country shouldnt be allowed to join an economic entity cuz its citizens are jerks.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Have you guys ever talked to Mexicans? I mean sure some of them are nice (like the ones with jobs), but alot of them are really really annoying.

[mojojojomo]

The question really comes down to what defines a European. Is it geography, culture, politics or history that's important, or some combination of the 4?

It's not a question i'm entirely sure on myself, but it leaves room for argument either way. What is certain is that Turkey does most definitely not share a similar culture with it's Christian neighbours. In fact, for much of the last 1000 years, it was in direct conflict with Europe primarily over religion. This argument loses some of its strength when you consider the hostilties that resulted from the Reformation. However, the Ottoman Empire (forerunner to the modern Turkish Republic) did rule much of South Eastern Europe, and in someways, it was far more European than Middle Eastern. The structure of government and land ownership had many similarities with that of Europe.

Over the past 80 years, the Turkish Republic has tried to bring itself closer to Europe, both in terms of politics and culture. This is obvious in the fact that Kemal Attatürk intsituted democracy (a decidely European concept) to the former Empire, which, aside from a few periods of military rule, has essentially remained strong. Recent reforms concerning the justice system and the condition of the Kurds has brought the country in line with most European regulations, which should allow it to begin entrance. It't important to note, though, that even the most optimistic of the supporters for Turkey's entry don't anticipate it to come any time sooner than 2020, and quite possibly later.

[Kingcrazygenius]

Has Turkey admitted to that Armenian thing yet? Cuz I don't think they should be considered if they can't own up to that.

[Dark_psycherV28]

Like i said,turkey has a democratic government but not a democratic culture.Meaning that a large portion of its people doesn't think or act democratically.Some people have on occasion killed their daughters when they got *****;That's of course an extreme occasion,bred by the islamic culture which is dominant in Turkey.I don't believe they are ready for Europe,or that Europe is ready for them.Not until humanitarian rights are fully respected in their country.Economy and political stability being other issues as well.
Not to mention that i'm sick of their airplanes violating our airspace and in some occasions harassing our civilian airplanes.(I'm Greek,as i said).Why do they still keep doing that?
Probably cause things over there are up to a degree influenced by the military and islamic fundamentalists.

[Dub Master]

95% of Turkey is left in the middle ages....
Wake up, Turkeys desire to get in the european union is like the desire to pump water out of the desert.

Not yet, is my opinion.

Dub Master

[undsputed1]

"Has Turkey admitted to that Armenian thing yet? Cuz I don't think they should be considered if they can't own up to that."

Oh come on now....I'm sure there are plenty members of the EU who still haven't fully owned up to some of their past.

[mojojojomo]

"Has Turkey admitted to that Armenian thing yet? Cuz I don't think they should be considered if they can't own up to that."

Oh come on now....I'm sure there are plenty members of the EU who still haven't fully owned up to some of their past.


But none of those unadmitted crimes are quite as bad as the Armenian genocide, so it is a differet kettle of fish.

[undsputed1]

Although I was only thinking the last 100 years, I'm sure we could probably put together an amazing list for EU countries, because, afterall, it is their armies that have been marching all over the world the last 500 years. I bet Turkey wouldn't look so bad then.

[Canadian Tire Money]

if the government is a democratic, then wouldn't the culture be democratic even if it is not "democratic" ?

[mojojojomo]

Although I was only thinking the last 100 years, I'm sure we could probably put together an amazing list for EU countries, because, afterall, it is their armies that have been marching all over the world the last 500 years. I bet Turkey wouldn't look so bad then.

I can't think of any crimes commited in the last century that haven't been admitted on the scale of the Amenian genocide. Sure, there was a lot of terrible things, but most of them are well documented. Even if you went back 500 years, most attrocities have been admitted, both in Europe and in Turkey.